WI P-38 Lightnings in RAF service?

[Draconis]

I'm away from my books, but a number of the books I have on P-38L list a top speed at maximum power of 442 mph, which (iirc) is the maximum speed the airframe would allow based mach limits. They cite as sources Tony LaVier and Lockheed testing documents. The books point out the 414 mph commonly quoted is not on maximum power.

Anyway, a nice collection of usenet posts on the greatness of the P-38 can be found here: http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html

One thing folks forget is how maneuverable the P-38 was due to its handed engines. Only the Spitfire could turn with it in the Western theater.

My intention with this thread was to posit the earlier development of the P-38 to the P38L model or something very much like the L thanks to RAF pilot reports,RAF demands and British funding from late 1940 thorugh 1941 prior to America's entry into WW2. This would allow the incorporation of the needed improvements to the Lightning in time for the huge production orders that the USAAF and in my ATL Commonwealth airforces would be requesting going into 1942.

There are substantial improvements between the P-38L and earlier models.
The L was almost perfected for an early 40s fighter. All the serious bugs had been resolved. Perhaps paddle-bladed propellers to take advantage of it's higher horsepower would have been the last big improvement possible for 1942 state of the technology.

I think that the 2 years earlier then OTL 1944 P-38L mass production and wider usage of my ATL P-38Ls would have shortened the war. If the RAF had enough of my 1942 ATL P-38Ls using their combat experienced pilots who knew how to use the P-38 to it's best advantage going into the spring of 1942 then it would have been feasible for Bomber Command to conduct the British bomber offensive in daytime.

American mass production of a capable long range escort fighter in large enough numbers in 1942 means the adequately equipped and protected massive RAF and growing USAAF daytime bomber offensive against the Third Reich could begin by the late spring and summer of 1942 without the horrendous losses the US 8th airforce suffered with their early unescorted missions and with the added accuracy that daylight bombing would have provided to the RAF.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

Was the P-38 tried on carriers? Take off is easy, but arrested landings? Where to put the hook? I suppose in the same location as the twin boom Vampire, Venom and Vixen. What was it's low speed handing like?

Sorry, I meant that it's additional range/endurance would give greater coverage to the RN, not that it could be used from carriers.

 

[Driftless]

My intention with this thread was to posit the earlier development of the P-38 to the P38L model or something very much like the L thanks to RAF pilot reports,RAF demands and British funding from late 1940 thorugh 1941 prior to America's entry into WW2. This would allow the incorporation of the needed improvements to the Lightning in time for the huge production orders that the USAAF and in my ATL Commonwealth airforces would be requesting going into 1942.

There are substantial improvements between the P-38L and earlier models.
The L was almost perfected for an early 40s fighter. All the serious bugs had been resolved. Perhaps paddle-bladed propellers to take advantage of it's higher horsepower would have been the last big improvement possible for 1942 state of the technology.

Was there serious consideration of alternative engines to the Allison's? ( I did like the radial-engined WHIFcraft shown earlier)

 

[marathag]

Was there serious consideration of alternative engines to the Allison's? ( I did like the radial-engined WHIFcraft shown earlier)

Nothing other than the Merlin XX, and that only a paper study

 

[Driftless]

After the Fall of France and well into 1941, the FW-200 Condor was the "Scourge of the Atlantic", prior to the appearance of CAM ships and escort carriers. With it's great range, speed, and firepower, could the P-38 have made a useful land-based Condor hunter? That time frame is a little early on for the Beaufighter, and was there an alternative? Up-gunned Martin Maryland?

Or, was that just going to be too much of a needle-in-a-haystack sort of hunt?

 

[Scotty]

After the Fall of France and well into 1941, the FW-200 Condor was the "Scourge of the Atlantic", prior to the appearance of CAM ships and escort carriers. With it's great range, speed, and firepower, could the P-38 have made a useful land-based Condor hunter? That time frame is a little early on for the Beaufighter, and was there an alternative? Up-gunned Martin Maryland?

Or, was that just going to be too much of a needle-in-a-haystack sort of hunt?

I think the problem is with its great range, speed & firepower they'd use the P38 somewhere else - somewhere that they feel is more important (whether we with hindsight agree or not)

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

... With it's great range, speed, and firepower, could the P-38 have made a useful land-based Condor hunter? That time frame is a little early on for the Beaufighter, and was there an alternative? Up-gunned Martin Maryland?

Or, was that just going to be too much of a needle-in-a-haystack sort of hunt?

No, with radar, radio DF, and careful analysis of sighting reports the odds might be raised to a useful level. There were not many FW200 & 5% combat losses per week or month on top of accident/mechanical losses would bite.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Reading through the posts here concerning the technicalities I see the bottom line as this: Any early development of the P38 (or several other models) that gives in 1941 a fighter plane with the range and general performance it had in 1943 is a game changer. Everyone is going to reconsider their aircraft development, tactics, operational doctrine, ect...

A second point that occurs to me, is if all the assorted improvement proposed here are made circa 1940-41 then that combination of the P38 is not going to be the P38 of 1943. Development is not going to stand still. The features will be refined and refined again. By 1943 the P38 will either be far more capable than OTL, or some new machine will be in production, even more advanced due to lessons learned i the previous years.

 

[Just Leo]

While aircraft improvements are such that one can easily imagine 3 years of development forgotten, the P-38 was designed for a 1,000 hp engine and used a clever intercooler with limitations. If one presumes a 1,475 Allison in 1941, there's no problem assuming a re-designed intercooler. One can also presume a 60 series Merlin in the BoB. Personally, I find it easier to imagine a redesigned Merlin Whirlwind with a broader chord wing. If one had the goal of building the best airplane, would one choose a second-rate engine? DH designers got the wing right twice, while Petter didn't get broad chord until Canberra. A Whirlwind-like-a-Hornet would fulfill the Lightning requirement, but with better heat from those leading-edge rads. Then again, with a teutonic flavor, the Falke could have undergone a similar metamorphosis, with the original wing. At the time, nobody thought it was worth the trouble and expense of using two engines for a single pilot.

 

[Blackfox5]

After the Fall of France and well into 1941, the FW-200 Condor was the "Scourge of the Atlantic", prior to the appearance of CAM ships and escort carriers. With it's great range, speed, and firepower, could the P-38 have made a useful land-based Condor hunter? That time frame is a little early on for the Beaufighter, and was there an alternative? Up-gunned Martin Maryland?

Or, was that just going to be too much of a needle-in-a-haystack sort of hunt?

With the great range of the P-38 and its ability to be used as a ground attack aircraft, could it be assigned the same kind of role as the B-24 VLR to provide convoy protection or recon against U-Boots? I think any U-Boot on the surface wouldn't want to see the P-38's cannons opening fire on it.

P-38s couldn't cover the entire Mid-Atlantic Gap, but they should be able to shrink it and thus reduce some of the sinkings.

P-38s might find it hard to hunt for the Condor, but they have the advantage of knowing where the convoys will be. They don't need to hunt for some Condor over the empty space of the ocean. They just need to patrol actual convoys and see whether any Condor shows up and then intercept.

 

[Just Leo]

With the great range of the P-38 and its ability to be used as a ground attack aircraft, could it be assigned the same kind of role as the B-24 VLR to provide convoy protection or recon against U-Boots? I think any U-Boot on the surface wouldn't want to see the P-38's cannons opening fire on it.

P-38s couldn't cover the entire Mid-Atlantic Gap, but they should be able to shrink it and thus reduce some of the sinkings.

P-38s might find it hard to hunt for the Condor, but they have the advantage of knowing where the convoys will be. They don't need to hunt for some Condor over the empty space of the ocean. They just need to patrol actual convoys and see whether any Condor shows up and then intercept.

The goal of the P-38 is to place an air superiority fighter at great distance from base. A Beaufighter or equivalent isn't such a fighter, but has marvelous legs and good guns, plus a navigator.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

Ya, with a single crew and relatively high cruise speed the P38 would have been a poor ASW weapon. Planes like the Hudson or PBY were better since you could cram in observers, and keep the speed down.

 

[Driftless]

The goal of the P-38 is to place an air superiority fighter at great distance from base. A Beaufighter or equivalent isn't such a fighter, but has marvelous legs and good guns, plus a navigator.

The Beaufighter was a better answer in the long run, but wasn't it just coming into service shortly after the fall of France, and after the Condors were abusing the convoys? A few months lag for the Beaufighters to be fully available? That's where I threw in the alternative of an up-gunned Maryland - more readily available at-the-moment, decent range & speed, or putting P-38's into the gap, until the Beaufighters came on.

*edit* It's timing-is-everything idea. For the Condor "Scourge" the Beaufighter (I think...) is coming online just behind the curve. The Whirlwind might have had a better change to have the engines tweaked, or replaced if it came online months earlier than OTL, or a year later (maybe...)

 

[Just Leo]

The Beaufighter was a better answer in the long run, but wasn't it just coming into service shortly after the fall of France, and after the Condors were abusing the convoys? A few months lag for the Beaufighters to be fully available? That's where I threw in the alternative of an up-gunned Maryland - more readily available at-the-moment, decent range & speed, or putting P-38's into the gap, until the Beaufighters came on.

The Marylands all ended up in the Med, except for 3 used by the FAA in the Orkneys. One of these reported that the Bismarck had broken out.

Perhaps, some Lightnings could also be stationed in the Orkneys.

 

[Driftless]

The Marylands all ended up in the Med, except for 3 used by the FAA in the Orkneys. One of these reported that the Bismarck had broken out.

Perhaps, some Lightnings could also be stationed in the Orkneys.

Wowser! As it didn't play in prime-time, there must have been some deficiencies, but you do have to admire the imagination there... Gabelschwanzteufel indeed

P-38F

 

[Admiral Beez]

Was there serious consideration of alternative engines to the Allison's? ( I did like the radial-engined WHIFcraft shown earlier)

I imagine had the Soviets got one and reverse engineered it, we'd see it powered by the Klimov M-105 used on the Yak-9. I think this is why few if any Lightnings flew over Russia.

 

[Just Leo]

Just sayin', Teddy Petter could have drawn up something like a Whirlwind with Merlins, and used a broader chord wing, such as that used on DH Hornet, or FW-187 for that matter, and come up with a single seat twin-engined long range fighter somewhat equivalent to the P-38 Lightning, in a similar time-frame. He would have to get along with a top-flight aerodynamicist, like Bev Shenstone who drew up the Spitfire wing. Britain had the talent, but they were doing something else at the time. Then again, the Air Ministry wasn't really looking for such an airplane, and didn't get it. Funny how that works.

 

[Driftless]

That's a nifty comparison there! Do you know why Petter opted for the long span-narrow chord wing for the Whirlwind? I realize there are a number of trade-offs with every design feature.

 

[Machiavelli Jr]

Wowser! As it didn't play in prime-time, there must have been some deficiencies, but you do have to admire the imagination there... Gabelschwanzteufel indeed

P-38F

Presumably part of the issue would be the max drop speed on early-war torpedoes being very close to the slowest you could safely fly a P-38?

 

[Just Leo]

That's a nifty comparison there! Do you know why Petter opted for the long span-narrow chord wing for the Whirlwind? I realize there are a number of trade-offs with every design feature.

The drawing is from the Westland Welkin which had Merlins, and had a long wing for altitude. The Whirlwind had less wingspan, but still narrow chord. It was also fairly thin, for speed. He got that right. The Welkin turned out being capable of flying so high and fast that the wing reached the critical mach number. The point behind Busemann's swept wing theory and Ackeret's transsonic wing theories was that fineness ratio was more important than thickness itself. In the case of the DH Hornet and FW-187, the wider chords were designed to provide more wing area to improve slow speed handling and lower landing speed. The Whirlwind fell short in this regard, and a wider chord would be the fix, and, serendipitously, raise the critical mach number. The Boeing B-47 suffered a similar problem, which resulted in the B-52 getting a wider chord wing. For Petter, success came with the broad-chord Canberra. For what it's worth, Focke-Wulf dropped its remarkably ideal FW-187 wing design when the Moskito was drawn up, resulting in an aircraft with high landing speed and undercarriage problems in addition to everything else. Sometimes, you don't know what you got 'till it's gone.

The Spitfire had a broad-chord wing of minimum thickness, resulting in the best critical mach number in the business at the time when nobody knew what it was because they didn't read the papers from the Volta conference. The Hurricane, on the other hand, had both great thickness, and a narrower chord. The thickness kept it from being fast enough to get mach troubles, but the follow-on Typhoon found them, and the Tempest wing, thinner with broader chord, was the fix. Lessons were there to be learned.