WI: Otto III survives and becomes consort Emperor of Byzantium

Assuming that Otto III survives his illness when he was just 21 y.o. and lives until older age, if he had married Zoë Porphyrogenita as planned IOTL and Zoë becomes Empress of Byzantium as well, he would become Emperor of the HRE ("West Roman Empire") and consort Emperor of the ERE at the same time.

It could have open the chance of a son of Otto and Zoë to inherit both Empires, but it would have been quite challenging situation to manage.
 
It could have open the chance of a son of Otto and Zoë to inherit both Empires, but it would have been quite challenging situation to manage.
For one generation max. It would be almost impossible to retain both empires given the completely different cultural pool. As well as a not irrelevant distance between the two, and the enormous size such a thing would be.

If for the grace of God those empire stays united someway for multiple generations, which is extremely unlikely, then they are going to lose much territory and prestige, only to break up later on.

The number of favorable events that needed to happen for those empire to have a somewhat stable and semi-perpetual union are so many that is borderline ASB-ish.
 
As @EternalDawn said, it'd be hard to retain the Empire united. Although, the Romans DID in fact maintain a united Empire at times. There are notably different political systems, cultural influences, etc.

However Otto III also did a number of peculiar things that suggest that he might well succeed - he was trying to re-establish the Roman Senate, he worked with the Pope on religious reform - and maintained power over Germany whilst ruling from Rome (however short that was).

Genuinely, I think the key to a survival relies on first the establishment of the Senate in Rome, which I expect would have to include all the significant Lords of the HRE - and through that formalise the appointment of regional rulers (perhaps even going so far as to have heavily weighted elections of the "Princeps Germanicum").

Second, if we assume a successful succession (that could go messily, but I imagine Zoe could hold it together) for the heir (Lets go with baby John/Ioannes) could have a shot with the unification of the German, Italian and Roman nobility into a single massive Roman Senate. I think the major concern is that the Empire might well fall into a 3-way Shogunate of sorts, with the German, Italian-Balkan (especially if Hungary was invaded), and Greco-Anatolian regions all effectively having powerful regional leaders.

At the same time, that potentially extreme decentralisation could also have benefits. Germans aren't likely to be ruled by Romans, Romans aren't likely to be ruled by Germans, making the Emperor less powerful, but also less 'obnoxious'. Do I think that'd happen by design? NOOOOOOOO. It'd be entirely political compromise between Otto III trying to ensure control over Germany and Zoe trying to ensure control over the Romans, with an army in Italy to ensure the middle.

Whilst you'd be hard pressed to convince people that Zoe was indeed "Macedonian" a merger of the Ottonians and Macedonians is one hell of a prestigious dynasty to be part of.

Going further, I think one key that would help would be 'John' calling for a Crusade - "Where those who serve may rule their land either as Roman or German" (as in style of rule). On one hand, yay - the Romans would probably like having more security out east, and the Germans would certainly appreciate the opportunity to get rich.

This would lead to a weird patchwork of Roman and German-Feudal rule in the Levant (I reckon together the Romans and Germans could probably take on the Fatamids and win) this actually is a "Good Thing" - the two systems intertwined can learn from each other and improve, and the Romans and Germans in the region have exposure to help reduce animosity since they fought together, rule together, and have to ensure that they aren't trashed by whoever wants to retake Egypt.

So would it be a true Empire - yes. Deeply oligarchical and a weird hybrid, yes. Very powerful, certainly. Prone to fall apart? Certainly. But as long as the Emperors can continue to convince the Germans and Romans to work together to make the Med their looting/stomping ground then I think the wealth they can get (and the 'bleeding' it gives the body of the Empire) helps bring some level of stability.

Whether it could genuinely reform, or solve its religious problems however - THAT is the biggest powderkeg IMO.
 
Why would the Byzantine elites accept Zoe and her barbarian husband as their Emperor?

Why not? She would be the Empress, her husband would not rule in Byzantium. She indeed was Empress for some years IOTL.

An eventual heir would be half-Eastern Roman(Macedonian) half-Western Roman (German). By the 11th century, as long as he would be Christian and did not challenge the status quo of the Church in both sides, he could be acceptable as a ruler.
 
In my opinion, a successful and long-lasting marriage of Otto and Zoe could have:

- Avoided the Schism of 1054.
- Avoided the later Investiture conflicts between Popes and Emperors.
- Provided a common heir who could have the chance of reunite most of the Christendom, at least from a nominal/formal/symbolical way (even if real power would have relied in other regional rulers).
- Allowed a more efficient, powerful Crusade in the East.
 
It'd be ideal if Otto and Zoe manage to produce two sons, each inheriting the HRE and ERE respectively.
If i'm not mistaken, Otto planned to move the HRE's capital to Rome, which would shift the center of gravity of his realm towards Italy. What are the long-term consequences for Germany? I'd wager that the Emperor's authority, from there on in, would not extend much further north than the Alps and the Danube.
Or would a proper subjugation of the Pope lead to less distractions for the Emperor, allowing him more space for expansion?
 
It'd be ideal if Otto and Zoe manage to produce two sons, each inheriting the HRE and ERE respectively.
If i'm not mistaken, Otto planned to move the HRE's capital to Rome, which would shift the center of gravity of his realm towards Italy. What are the long-term consequences for Germany? I'd wager that the Emperor's authority, from there on in, would not extend much further north than the Alps and the Danube.
Or would a proper subjugation of the Pope lead to less distractions for the Emperor, allowing him more space for expansion?

Yes, Otto planned to move the HRE capital to Rome (he indeed lived there when he died), reactivate the Senate and subdue the Pope to the Emperor's authority.
 
Why not? She would be the Empress, her husband would not rule in Byzantium. She indeed was Empress for some years IOTL.

An eventual heir would be half-Eastern Roman(Macedonian) half-Western Roman (German). By the 11th century, as long as he would be Christian and did not challenge the status quo of the Church in both sides, he could be acceptable as a ruler.
The Byzantine political elite recognized Zoe’s right to rule, but thought that she should marry and let her husband actually become Emperor and rule. They fully expected Zoe to retire from public life and her husband to become emperor. If Zoe is married to Otto, she will simply be passed over in succession in favor of Theodora.
 
I doubt it would be all that cut and dry. For one most of the Byzantine elite would object heavily to being ruled by a barbarian, married to the Macedonian heiress or not. So realistically someone is going to move for a coup in 1028, when Constantine VIII dies, be it a general, a noble or Zoe's sister Theodora. Plus we have a POD in 1002; with Zoe married to the Emperor of the West we might see Basil decide to order Constantine to remarry under pressure from the nobility, which could lead to a male heir.
 
I doubt it would be all that cut and dry. For one most of the Byzantine elite would object heavily to being ruled by a barbarian, married to the Macedonian heiress or not. So realistically someone is going to move for a coup in 1028, when Constantine VIII dies, be it a general, a noble or Zoe's sister Theodora. Plus we have a POD in 1002; with Zoe married to the Emperor of the West we might see Basil decide to order Constantine to remarry under pressure from the nobility, which could lead to a male heir.

I agree - hence why I expect that Zoe would need to ensure she has an ally - that would become the regional leader - much like I said "Princeps Germanicum" upthread, a similar title/position (Sebastokrator?) might be the only solution to prevent an outright coup, and at least maintain a measure of Imperial Authority - its why IMO a Crusade is perfect. It'd be Otto doing something that benefits the Romans (garnering some approval I'd expect), and at the same time, bringing a large number of the German Lords into the same place to prevent them pissing around in Germany. If the non-ruling Barbarian is "Good" for them, it might be hard to garner support for a coup.
 
I doubt it would be all that cut and dry. For one most of the Byzantine elite would object heavily to being ruled by a barbarian, married to the Macedonian heiress or not. So realistically someone is going to move for a coup in 1028, when Constantine VIII dies, be it a general, a noble or Zoe's sister Theodora. Plus we have a POD in 1002; with Zoe married to the Emperor of the West we might see Basil decide to order Constantine to remarry under pressure from the nobility, which could lead to a male heir.
Otto was half-Greek himself, being a son of a Byzantine princess. He was fluent in Greek and an avid Romanophile. I feel like he'd have a decent claim to the empire, especially as we don't have religious differences to worry about, as this was before the East/West schism. Honestly, I'd be more worried about the German nobility rebelling against him.
 

Philip

Donor
I feel like he'd have a decent claim to the empire, especially as we don't have religious differences to worry about, as this was before the East/West schism.

There would still be religious tensions. The Great Schism is a generation away, and it did not appear suddenly. Certainly the tension wouldn't be as strong as it would later become, but there would be lingering concerns about papal influence.
 
There would still be religious tensions. The Great Schism is a generation away, and it did not appear suddenly. Certainly the tension wouldn't be as strong as it would later become, but there would be lingering concerns about papal influence.
I mean, OTL Otto fought with the Pope, so I don't think that, had he or one of his children become Byzantine emperor, that the concern would be of his Orthodox subjects disliking his submission to the Patriarch of Rome.
 

Philip

Donor
I mean, OTL Otto fought with the Pope, so I don't think that, had he or one of his children become Byzantine emperor, that the concern would be of his Orthodox subjects disliking his submission to the Patriarch of Rome.

Didn't Otto support Gregory V against John XVI? John was actively supported by Basil II. I'm not sure that will endear Otto to the Greek nobles.
 
It does seem like keeping all three imperial regions together for several generations would be nigh-on-impossible, but with the HRE centered in Rome, I'd not be surprised if the idea of uniting the west with the east would appeal to the Romans enough that the first large piece to fall off the Empire would be Germany, or part thereof. The Alps are after all a 'hard' divider, while the combined Italian Balkan and Anatolian ports could support a navy which could easily ensure that the Med remains a Roman lake. How much loyalty would the Saxons have to Otto and his heirs? Could they keep the other German states in line by providing the Ottonians with a norther power base for at least long enough to prove themselves to the Greeks and build a new power base in Italy? Would Bohemia rather remain with the Germans or with the Romans, if the empire does fragment?
 
It would be interesting how a combined HRE/ERE entity would affect other significant events of the era like the Norman invasion of England or the Reconquista in Spain.
 
In this TL we can have the eldest son of Otto and Zoë becoming Roman Emperor (ERE/HRE) with seats in Rome and Constantinople and his younger brother becoming the King of Germany under the authority of the Emperor
 
Last edited:
Top