WI: Osman II managed to disband the Janissaries?

  • Thread starter Deleted member 67076
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Deleted member 67076

In 1622 Ottoman Sultan Osman II attempted to disband the Janissaries and replace them with a full time army of ethnic Turkish soldiers upon realizing that they had become just like the pretorians of old, doing far more harm than they did good. Upon trying to implement his reforms, the sultan was taken hostage by the Janissaries and assassinated later.

Now lets say Osman manages to avoid a few assassination attempts and get his idea for a new army off the ground and actually manages to disband the Janissaries. What's next?
 
Well Europe would still be in the mist of the 30 years war, if he can use this time to take care of the Safavids and reform the empire then then the Ottomans would be in the same positions it was right before Mehmets conquest of Constantinople.
 
It's an interesting topic, especially speculations about what could come afterwards. I wish there was a TL devoted to seeing that concept through.
 
Assuming they can still find competent commanders i imagine they would be able to make more headway against central europe and Russia. But they would still have to face Austria, Venice, Poland and Russia all alone so there would probably only be minor territorial concessions, but they would probably be able to decisively defeat persia.
 
The real question is what they do internally, in terms of the military the East Mediterranean is only under threat from Russia in the long-term. If they could get around their social problems , specifically with the creation of a central identity in a good deal of the empire might last to the present day more or less.
 
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This does need to be a time line just cause how interesting it would be I mean even during the 1683 siege of Vienna and all the Turks went in confident of victory and the whole "Turkish menace" ready to swallow Europe was still a genuine fear.
 

Deleted member 67076

Well Europe would still be in the mist of the 30 years war, if he can use this time to take care of the Safavids and reform the empire then then the Ottomans would be in the same positions it was right before Mehmets conquest of Constantinople.

Assuming they can still find competent commanders i imagine they would be able to make more headway against central europe and Russia. But they would still have to face Austria, Venice, Poland and Russia all alone so there would probably only be minor territorial concessions, but they would probably be able to decisively defeat persia.

Well there was peace with the Safavids at this time and Safi wasn't the best ruler, so combined with the wars in Europe we can assume that this would give a bit of a 'breathing room' for the empire where reforms can be passed relatively uninterrupted.

By the time the next period of war would start (assuming it does historically) this would be the Cretan War in the mid 1640s. So about 25 years to get things sorted out.

I don't presume this to be easy, as the historical demise of the Janissaries was a bloody affair and here the institution would have much more prestige and influence.

The real question is what they do internally, in terms of the military the East Mediterranean is only under threat from Russia in the long-term. If they could get around their social problems , specifically with the creation of a central identity in a good deal of the empire might last to the present day more or less.
Well nationalism should it develop is a few hundred years away, so there's plenty of time.

This does need to be a time line just cause how interesting it would be I mean even during the 1683 siege of Vienna and all the Turks went in confident of victory and the whole "Turkish menace" ready to swallow Europe was still a genuine fear.
I have had the idea of doing this recently, hence the thread. I've always been curious to wonder what would happen should the Ottomans could finally crack Vienna and while not eliminate, at least cripple the Hapsburgs as a threat before they get Hungary. There'd probably be a period of overextension in the future, but in the coming years the situation in Germany and France would be drastically altered with the balance of power there shattered.
 
While the Janissaries are a problem, there's still a ton of talent that will be deployed against the sultan, and no longer for the Empire.

In the long run, it would likely be good to eliminate the state-within-the-state type structures like the Janissaries... but I could easily see the 'new' army suffering a few embarrasing defeats before getting the organisation working right. Now, if that's embarrasing defeats during an offensive campaign that only leads to a failure there, it's a net positive, but if the Ottoman army in Mesopotamia gets crushed by a Safavid force, that may actually harm the Ottomans in the long run (by semi-permanently detaching Iraq from the Empire).
 
While the Janissaries are a problem, there's still a ton of talent that will be deployed against the sultan, and no longer for the Empire.

In the long run, it would likely be good to eliminate the state-within-the-state type structures like the Janissaries... but I could easily see the 'new' army suffering a few embarrasing defeats before getting the organisation working right. Now, if that's embarrasing defeats during an offensive campaign that only leads to a failure there, it's a net positive, but if the Ottoman army in Mesopotamia gets crushed by a Safavid force, that may actually harm the Ottomans in the long run (by semi-permanently detaching Iraq from the Empire).

This. Purging of old guard forms of military organization happens best when the regime seeking reform is not under threat. Assuming you could get Osman II through every possible plot against him, which is hard enough by itself, you'd then have to give every neighboring and rival polity the stupid virus so that they don't hit the sultanate while it's vulnerable.
 

PhilippeO

Banned
A lot would depending on nature of 'new army'. What kind of army Osman II plan to create ? and what limitation can limit his plan ?

Ottoman is too big and sophisticated for feudal/sipahi pay-with-land army. Did Ottoman Economy is advanced enough to provide money for wage-based army. How this new army leadership come from ? officer who have tribval/local ties could be dangerous. even if new army is successful, problem would rise in later generation when children of army officers become officers themselves, Usually they will create military-noble class that eventually become threat to central authority.
 
In the long run, it would likely be good to eliminate the state-within-the-state type structures like the Janissaries... but I could easily see the 'new' army suffering a few embarrasing defeats before getting the organisation working right. Now, if that's embarrasing defeats during an offensive campaign that only leads to a failure there, it's a net positive, but if the Ottoman army in Mesopotamia gets crushed by a Safavid force, that may actually harm the Ottomans in the long run (by semi-permanently detaching Iraq from the Empire).
IIRC the Mughals made approaches about an alliance against the Safavids a couple of years after Osman's death but it was disrupted by the Mughal Emperor's death, although his son also showed some interest in the idea. Here with no weak reign of Mustafa the idea could possibly be floated earlier by either side, it would certainly benefit the Ottoman's by potentially keeping their eastern border quiet whilst they sorted things out internally. Due to that I think it would probably be more of a defensive treaty at least until things settle down somewhat, at which point a joint war against them could be rather appealing as a way of both regaining Baghdad and Mesopotamia and boosting the personal prestige of the Sultan.
 
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