WI - Orthodox Christian USSR?

Atheism was just too deeply engrained in the Bolshevik world-view for this to happen. Even the pseudo-religious Bogostroitel’stvo https://www.alternatehistory.com/forum/threads/bogostroitel’stvo-god-building.410385/#post-14252613 was condemned.

This is not to deny that the Soviets, once they tamed the Orthodox Church, could use it for their purposes, as Stalin did in the 1940's, to boost morale during the Great Patriotic War and to give propaganda support for the post-war "peace campaign." But it would just not be possible for the Soviet state to adopt the world-view of the Orthodox Church as its own.
 
As an Orthodox Christian, I can tell you that you'd need to pretty handily change the relationship between the Peasants, the Czar, and the Orthodox Church. I can see the Patriarch of Moscow quietly staging a coup if the Czar tried to hunt peasants for sport or something, but unless you were to significantly change the relationship between them, I don't see how that's gonna happen, unfortunately.
A thought that immediately came to mind would be to have a Czar try to liquidate Church lands, perhaps with a puppet Patriarch. That would bring the Church and the People together against a common enemy, which might end in the peasants instituting a ROC-lead or OC-lead Russia that takes on some socialist characteristics to appease the communists and socialists.
Lead by the Patriarch of Moscow. Ecclesiastical authority kinda radiates from the ROC as a governmental authority. Kind of welfare state structures. Overall a pretty nice place to live.
What’s with all this talk about “Czar this & Patriarch that”?

From the days of Peter the Great all the way to 1917 the Russian Orthodox Church didn’t have a Patriarch: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarch_of_Moscow_and_all_Rus%27

EDIT: as per the scenario imagined by the OP, maybe a POD involving this man could help bring about a “Christian Socialist USSR”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgy_Gapon
 
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I'm Orthodox, though not Russian, but here are my two cents.

Symphonia in Orthodoxy makes it a religion very friendly to a strong centralized governmental authority. Hence, Putin (though divorced and allegedly swapping girlfriends all the time) is now all of the sudden a born-again Orthodox.

Nevertheless, I think the OP is similar to a Notzi scenerio (i.e. "would the Nazis win the war if they were nicer to the slavs, or did something that would essentially make them non-nazi?")

Communism IS a religion--and now a defunct one being that it is passe and discredited at this point. To make the USSR Orthodox would be to make it not the USSR at all.

But, let me try working with the OP.

Let's say Lenin takes power, out of pragmatism decides to not to oppose Patriarch Tikhon (who initially WAS conciliatory with the Bolsheviks), and then Lenin's NEP goes into play and is successful. Let's say neither Stalin nor Trotsky get into power (butterflies) and whoever takes power essentially keeps NEP going. What you have is a fascist USSR. As we well know, Orthodoxy and fascism fit like a hand in a glove (I don't say this to discredit Orthodoxy, because I am Orthodox, but to point out that Orthodoxy is very supportive of strong, conservative, nationalistic governance.) So, you can very well have a very strong USSR (one that Germany would not dream invading) with Europe's most powerful army and the Earth's second largest economy by the 1950s.

I suspect that fascist persecutions of Uniates is possible. Forced conversions in Poland to Orthodoxy (in order to make them better Russian subjects) is possible. A play for Constantinople is also possible in the event of another world war (and they'll get it.) Greece probably would fall into the Eastern sphere of influence.

We would see evangelization in Latin America, trying to peel Roman Catholics to Orthodoxy (to those who think this is strange conjecture, the Russian Church is doing this today, so why wouldn't they spread Russian influence through Orthodoxy instead of Marxist-Leninism in ATL?).

In my honest opinion, Orthodoxy has generally avoided truly persecuting minorities (even what the Byzantines and Czars did to the Egyptians and Ukrainians respectively absolutely pales in comparison to what we saw Protestants and Roman Catholics due to captive populations.) So, I really don't think we are going to see a Uniate Holodomor, though maybe this is my Orthodoxy speaking and not my armchair historian mind at work.

Nevertheless, Orthodoxy is way stronger today. USSR is probably still around to. Russia's economy would be stagnated, but the USSR would likely be in the top 10 global economies (top 3 is still possible with butterflies, especially with a population of likely 400-500 million, avoiding WW2, controlling trade in the black sea, having a ton of oil, being open to global markets and being more competitive, etcetera.)

An interesting dynamic is the face of global morality. We would have secularlism in the west, Orthodoxy over half of Europe and Asia, and Islam as it is today. I think the West would view Orthodoxy much like Muslims (crazy fundamentalists), because Orthodoxy (especially in Russia) is inherently reactionary. Heck, they still use Old Church Slavonic in liturgies and force their convert priests in the USA to do those same liturgies in a language they don't even understand! (I live near ROCOR's monastary so I see it first hand.)

I could see a lot more American and Latin American converts to Orthodoxy simply because it would pose a much more noticeable opposition to modernism and secularism.
 
So then who’d govern an Orthodox Christian Socialist Russia?
The Supreme Soviet. The Orthodox Christian Church would only become one of the states arms of influence. The Soviet controlled church could be used as a sort of morallity police. Perhaps mesh in some anti-bourgeois rhetoric.
 
@pattersonautobody, very well-written response! Would you happen to be Eastern Orthodox or Oriental Orthodox?

Are you sure the USSR would go fascist, though? Seems a bit unlikely.
Eastern Orthodox (Orthodox Church of America.)

I do think USSR would go fascist if NEP continued and Orthodoxy was propped up (remember, it was my contention this was borderline ASB as Marxism is a religion that will not allow for other religions.)

Here's the WIKI definition of fascism:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

An Orthodox USSR with NEP would fulfill all of these requirements. It in fact makes a Pan-Slavic nationalism more possible. This is why I hinted that forced Uniate conversions (and persecutions, same to the Muslims) are possible, just like Nazism went after non-Germans and ideological enemies.
 
Eastern Orthodox (Orthodox Church of America.)

I do think USSR would go fascist if NEP continued and Orthodoxy was propped up (remember, it was my contention this was borderline ASB as Marxism is a religion that will not allow for other religions.)

Here's the WIKI definition of fascism:

Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of radical authoritarian ultranationalism, characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition and strong regimentation of society and of the economy, which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.

An Orthodox USSR with NEP would fulfill all of these requirements. It in fact makes a Pan-Slavic nationalism more possible. This is why I hinted that forced Uniate conversions (and persecutions, same to the Muslims) are possible, just like Nazism went after non-Germans and ideological enemies.
So then what would happen to the Bolsheviks in this ATL?
 
Russia is a very interesting case IMHO. They obviously prefer dictatorial/autocratic government culturally. I don't say this to bash Russians, because I worship with Russians. They have a very positive view of their Tsars (to them it is a golden age), and even Stalin has had a resurgence in popularity.

I honestly think a fascist USSR would bode to last much longer than the Socialist one (provided we actually get PODs between 1918-1930 to both keep NEP going and Soviet support for the Church.) Russia has arguably drifted into fascism today under Putin, so just imagine a Russian government that is largely the same ATL, perhaps with a little less democratic elements.

In 2012, if the former USSR still existed, their population would be 298 million. This is with the Ukrainian genocide, WW2, NEP, legalized abortion, forced urbanization (urbanization ALWAYS decreases birth rates) and etcetera.

A present-day ATL USSR would easily have 400 million people. Due to fascism, we would be dealing with a lot of these people being converted over to Orthodoxy over the 20th century.

We then also have a fascist Greece, fascist Bulgaria, fascist Yugoslavia, Fascist Romania... Czeckoslovakia would be in this weird middle ground, though I bet they would actually be within the sphere of influence of the "second world." I think we are too quick to think a West always wins sort of thing. IOTL, the USSR accounted for 20% of the global economy and the USA 28%. This was AFTER famines, demographic disaster, their industrial base literally being looted..etcetera. So, it does not take some huge stretch of the imagination that the USSR ATL would perhaps even exceed the US, though certainly not per capita and they would be significantly behind the first world as a whole (French Empire, British Empire, etcetera.) Nevertheless, can Russia exert enough influence to Finlandize Sweden, Norway, Czeckolovakia, Hungary? Easily.

Real knock on effects can occur depending upon which loony takes power in Germany. A Fascist USSR definitely butterflies away the Nazis...but it does not make a France-Germany rematch impossible. At the very least, during Germany's build up, they will become a key trading partner for the USSR. If Germany fights, the USSR might very well annex parts of Germany (which will inflate their GDP and improve their export capacity and intellectual capital.) At the very least, they would be given in trade tons of German technology and Germany proves to be a significant buffer state between them and the West. In all liklihood, Germany is fascist and is an ATL Yugoslavia...not under the SOviet thumb, but not under the West either.

Japan's role in this world is also interesting. They are in collision course with someone...and it won't be Russia. And, whichever western power they end up dragging into war, they will end up being beaten and ironically, the USSR will end up occupying before the last bell all the best parts of the Japanese Empire (Manchuria and Korea) while the Wallies would have fought the war for POS islands and Southeast Asia. Talk about the short end of the stick. ATL Japan may or may not actually be occupied by Western powers...my guess is that they will not, as the Nuclear bomb will be invented by the Germans or British first...not the Americans. Hence, the peace will be struck after starvation and massive level bombings, but not a full blown occupation IMHO. If Downfall does occur, this only strengthens Soviet influence post-war. After the War, Japan will be a Western satellite.

THis means the USSR will be propping up fascist forces in China while the West will be propping up some group that is behind the Emperor or something. Being that the USSR is on the ground, they probably win and not the West. China becomes a fascist ATL version of themselves. In fact, decolonization will have a totally different flavor. It will be unabashedly nationalistic and fascistic, while the West would be intellectually contradictory (propping up dictators to keep up their imperial empires.)

On this note, I think Korea, Manchuria, and Northern Japan pose absolutely fantastic evangelistic opportunities for global Orthodoxy ITTL. South Korea today has a huge Presbyterian population due to their country being rebuilt with the help of Western missionaries. Well, the liberators ITTL of a much larger stretch of Asia will be the USSR. They will be bringing with them Orthodoxy, which already had tiny footholds in China and Japan IOTL. After harsh Japanese occupation, Soviet liberation may provide a pretext for an ATL mass conversion to Orthodox Christianity. This alone may increase global Orthodoxy by about 100 million...maybe more. This also has interesting knock-on effects for global evangelism. Orthodoxy will definitely be viewed as a multi-ethnic religion instead of a Greek/Slavic form of Roman Catholicism as it is today. Also, these Asian churches would at the very least be autonomous by now, though I seriously doubt they would have autocephaly (again USSR is fascist and will have a lot of control over the Moscow Church.)

Ecumenical dialogue is something that may prove to be interesting. IOTL, quibbling over transubstantiation with the Anglicans might lessen, though union would NEVER happen. A coup might be pulled off in Nordic countries and the state Lutheran churches might be converted to Orthodoxy and their Bishops re-ordained (I do not think economia would be used simply to turn them Orthodox with a stroke of a pen.) Anglican and Roman Catholic countries during de-colonization also come into play, especially if Soviet weapons and finances back those who overthrow Western Imperialists. It is not impossible, in some limited circumstances, that the nations Bishops in a show of nationalism convert to Orthodoxy and bring their flocks with them.

Things are not all rosey for global Orthodoxy ITTL IMHO. Even if their numbers are huge (500 million to perhaps 700 million if everything goes right in Asia and Africa), there is going to be massive internal strife. Obviously, ITTL the Moscow Church has the most power de facto, but all the power de jure belongs to Constantinople, Antioch, Alexandria, and Jerusalem. ITTL, the Moscow Church is probably going to being stealing Asian Christians from Antioch (theoretically this is their jurisdiction) and African Christians from Alexandria. They have the power to do it and they cannot be stopped.

Best case scenario is Phyletism times ten (a problem which is plaguing modern Orthodoxy, is creating the Ukraine problem IOTL, and may prove to cause schism soon.) Worst case is Western fomented schisms. IMHO, it all depends upon whether militarily the USSR takes Constantinople after WW1 and before the end of the Great Depression, or butterflies lead to the Greeks getting it. In short, Constantinople cannot be in Turkish hands or schism is a foregone conclusion, because you better believe Turkey would be TTL's West Germany...propped up and militarized by the West a crap ton. A Constantinople inside the first instead of second world will be an opposing force in Orthodoxy. We could very well see all of the historical Patriarchates excommunicate the entire Orthodox second world. So, while the world would visibly look very Orthodox ITTL, in reality the vast preponderance would be schismatics! That, or, we would be having very interesting ecclesiological discussions (if the first world Orthodox churches excommunicated the second world, being they "Started it," would they be in schism? Then, what happens to the whole order of Patriarchates since Chalcedon with every single Church in schism? What happens to Canon Law? Is there a Council of Moscow that reconsistutes global Orthodoxy and officially amends ecclesial boundaries and primacy?)

If the second world has a toe-hold in the Middle East and controls the Constantinopolitan Patriarchate, then likely Moscow runs the show and the other churches simply go along with everything.

To end this rambling post, what is the end game? There isn't one. In a modern world, fascism will prove to be Russia's natural form of government. Orthodoxy works very well with it. I see no end in sight.

The economy of the USSR will be very interesting. Weapons, oil, grain exporting, much better medicine than ITTL. Knock-on effects on electronics and automobiles is possible.
 
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