WI: Orkney and Shetland stay linguistically Scandinavian into C20

220px-Languages_of_Scotland_1400_AD.svg.png
This is a linguistic map of Scotland from the Fifteenth Century. As you may have guessed, Blue is Gaelic and Yellow is English/Scots. But you may be wondering what orange is?

Orange is Norn, the Scandinavian language of Orkney and Shetland, spoken there ever since the Vikings first took over. After the islands were handed over from Norway to Scotland in the fifteenth century, Norn was gradually replaced by Scots/English as the mother tongue of the people of Orkney and Shetland, with the last speaker dying out in the middle of the nineteenth century.

But what if the Norn language had not died out, and had instead continued to survive on both Orkney and Shetland as a regional language, into the 20th century? This, I believe, is not too far fetched, as Gaelic continued to be the language of the Outer Hebrides for most of the 20th century, and was still spoken by 52% of people there in 2011.

So here's the question, if Norn had survived, how would it have effected the islands' identity? Would they be considered Scots just like the Mainlanders, or would they be considered a separate Ethnic group? Would the Norns today be under the devolved Scottish parliament, or would they be their own nation within the UK?
 
But what if the Norn language had not died out, and had instead continued to survive on both Orkney and Shetland as a regional language, into the 20th century? This, I believe, is not too far fetched, as Gaelic continued to be the language of the Outer Hebrides for most of the 20th century, and was still spoken by 52% of people there in 2011.
I find it almost impossible frankly, considering you want them to be under Scotland for the same amount of time and under similar circumstances.
So here's the question, if Norn had survived, how would it have effected the islands' identity?
The nature of them being isles already affects the local identity, I imagine thought there would be a secessionist or autonomist movement.

Would they be considered Scots just like the Mainlanders, or would they be considered a separate Ethnic group?
Separate, as Celtic Scots are different from Lowland Scots.

Would the Norns today be under the devolved Scottish parliament, or would they be their own nation within the UK?
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Under Scotland, it's too small to be its own thing IMO.
 
The reason why the Islands turned Scots was because after the takeover some of the Scottish overpopulation migrated there. So there's two solutions something ensure the Scots can't migrate there or let it stay Danish. If it stay Danish we would likely see them and Faroese make up a common libgualistic zone. The Danish agricultural policy which was inspired by the British (as in the Danes look at Britain and decided to do the opposite) would also result in a significant larger population. Today Faroe have bigger population than Orkney plus Shetlands plus a diaspora in Denmark bigger than either areas, in 1800 it had 1/20 the population of the two regions. While Faroese growth will likely be too big, I think it's likely that Both would have over 100.000 people if they had been under Danish rule.
 
I find it almost impossible frankly, considering you want them to be under Scotland for the same amount of time and under similar circumstances.
But regional languages managed to survive in other places, like Gaelic in the Hebrides, the regional languages of France, of Spain etc. What do you mean when you say that it is impossible? If anything given that other regional languages survived in Western Europe until the 20th century, you should have expected Norn to. At least have an elderly speaker survive until the 70s, like Manx, surely?
 
But regional languages managed to survive in other places, like Gaelic in the Hebrides, the regional languages of France, of Spain etc. What do you mean when you say that it is impossible? If anything given that other regional languages survived in Western Europe until the 20th century, you should have expected Norn to. At least have an elderly speaker survive until the 70s, like Manx, surely?

The thing is some languages survive others don't there is no transferable equation that can accurately predict language survival. British policy during post war 20C has been one of linguistic preservation had Norn survived into the 60s it may have stood a chance. However Manx and it's Gaelic relatives were in close proximity not for language transference but definitely in terms of shared culture and identity. Scottish Gaelic was emboldened by a tangible sense of shared ethnicity, military prowess and unified by a fear of anglicisation. As someone who had a Gaelic speaking grandfather and great uncle it is this unnerving dislike and rejection of Englishness in all aspects which will forever remain in the memory. Did the Norns have this? Probably not- the influence of the English language provided mercantile equity and a sense that they mattered?
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
The key is to keep Sutherland and Caithness Gaelic speaking later. OTL the towns of Wick and Thurso were Scots speaking in the 16th century, this was where Scots spread from leading to the 18th century extinction of Norn.

The map above is actually probably wrong, or at least covers a more complicated picture. Norn may have also still been spoken in Caithness in the 15th century, and Scots will already have been spoken by some. So some people in Caithness probably switched directly from Norn to Scots. Perhaps you want something like an *MacDonald or *Campbell super powerful Gaelic chiefdom getting their hands on Caithness, and impeding the development of a Scots-speaking town facing Orkney. This is really quite difficult because Burghs in Scotland were ALL English-speaking OTL AFAIK.
 
I'm 6th generation New Zealander and Mum's family are largely Shetland/Orkney and Eastern Highlands and her grandmother was apparently fluent in Gaelic (she passed late 50s). My grandmother taught us a little as well, mainly nursery rhymes and numbers. So Gaelic was sporadically resilient within families it seems.

Looking at the family tree, the incidence of Nordic names seems to have died out mid 19th century. So from that point Olaf and Wolf stopped being used even as middle names.
 

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
I'm 6th generation New Zealander and Mum's family are largely Shetland/Orkney and Eastern Highlands and her grandmother was apparently fluent in Gaelic (she passed late 50s). My grandmother taught us a little as well, mainly nursery rhymes and numbers. So Gaelic was sporadically resilient within families it seems.

Looking at the family tree, the incidence of Nordic names seems to have died out mid 19th century. So from that point Olaf and Wolf stopped being used even as middle names.

There were Gaelic-speakers in the Eastern Highlands (around Balmoral f.e.) up to the 1950's. They were very old but still. Very interested in the name evidence, I hadn't thought about Scandy personal names surviving so long.
 
The thing is some languages survive others don't there is no transferable equation that can accurately predict language survival. British policy during post war 20C has been one of linguistic preservation had Norn survived into the 60s it may have stood a chance. However Manx and it's Gaelic relatives were in close proximity not for language transference but definitely in terms of shared culture and identity. Scottish Gaelic was emboldened by a tangible sense of shared ethnicity, military prowess and unified by a fear of anglicisation. As someone who had a Gaelic speaking grandfather and great uncle it is this unnerving dislike and rejection of Englishness in all aspects which will forever remain in the memory. Did the Norns have this? Probably not- the influence of the English language provided mercantile equity and a sense that they mattered?

The key is to keep Sutherland and Caithness Gaelic speaking later. OTL the towns of Wick and Thurso were Scots speaking in the 16th century, this was where Scots spread from leading to the 18th century extinction of Norn.

The map above is actually probably wrong, or at least covers a more complicated picture. Norn may have also still been spoken in Caithness in the 15th century, and Scots will already have been spoken by some. So some people in Caithness probably switched directly from Norn to Scots. Perhaps you want something like an *MacDonald or *Campbell super powerful Gaelic chiefdom getting their hands on Caithness, and impeding the development of a Scots-speaking town facing Orkney. This is really quite difficult because Burghs in Scotland were ALL English-speaking OTL AFAIK.

Ok so let's just for the sake of this TL, imagine a scenario whereby Norn manages to survive into the 20th century in both Orkney and Shetland, just as Gaelic did in the Hebrides in OTL. In this ATL, Norn, like Gaelic, goes into decline in its island territories, so that by the 2010s, on both Orkney and Shetland, it's a 'Granny-spoke-it-when-she-was-young' language. Now, I would assume that there would be revival efforts right? The question is, what would these revival efforts look like? I assume that unlike Gaelic, attempts to revive Norn would be focused entirely on Orkney and Shetland, and you would only get bilingual schools there, and not in major Scottish cities like you do with Gaelic right?
 
Urs
Ok so let's just for the sake of this TL, imagine a scenario whereby Norn manages to survive into the 20th century in both Orkney and Shetland, just as Gaelic did in the Hebrides in OTL. In this ATL, Norn, like Gaelic, goes into decline in its island territories, so that by the 2010s, on both Orkney and Shetland, it's a 'Granny-spoke-it-when-she-was-young' language. Now, I would assume that there would be revival efforts right? The question is, what would these revival efforts look like? I assume that unlike Gaelic, attempts to revive Norn would be focused entirely on Orkney and Shetland, and you would only get bilingual schools there, and not in major Scottish cities like you do with Gaelic right?[/QUO


Yes I imagine so it would probably also become an official language of the UK in the same way Welsh,Gaelic and Cornish is. Interestingly I've got a feeling English isn't.

However if you consider how Cornish and Manx finally died out then revival attempts may simply be too late sadly.

But I feel it's not impossible - many languages once existed in the British Isles and Ireland that could have survived;

For example native welsh speakers living in Herefordshire (native to Hereford for generations even centuries) existed until the mid to late 19th century making them the last indigenous Welsh speakers who were actually English.

Cumbric as a language was recorded as a surviving Brythonic language in what is now Cumbria during the 16th century - Henry viii's reign to be specific.

Over the sea to Ireland it is believed that Munster was Brythonic speaking until the early medieval period.

And even further back in time indecipherable Ogham script in Pictland territory has lead some archeologists to prepose that pre Indo European languages may have existed beyond the Roman period. This I find most fascinating if true.
 
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