WI: Operation Uranus was an Utter Disaster?

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What if Operation Uranus, or rather the simultaneous push to encircle and destroy the Sixth Armee (though the entirety of Armee Group B was also a target) in the winter of 1942, was an unmitigated disaster to point where most, if not all Red Army combatants are captured and killed with the Sixth Armee still alive.

Could Stalin as a political figure survive the aftermath?

With their position in the south still somewhat secure, could the German push on in the Spring of 1943?

How does this effect LL and DDay planning?
 
Well it would be interesting to see how you figure thats going to happen.

According to wiki the Red army used over 1 million troops and a lot more planes and tanks in Operation Uranus, while the axis had about 780,000 men and less planes and tanks. So how are they going to manages that whilst surrounded and the weakest axis forces protecting their flanks?
 
What if Operation Uranus, or rather the simultaneous push to encircle and destroy the Sixth Armee (though the entirety of Armee Group B was also a target) in the winter of 1942, was an unmitigated disaster to point where most, if not all Red Army combatants are captured and killed with the Sixth Armee still alive.

See I think you already see the problem with this. Unless Uranus fails totally spectacularly the Third Reich still loses at Stalingrad. Nothing short of total miracle will do to provide victory.

So you are asking us to work out the results of an immobile, outnumbered, out supplied and out gunned force somehow not merely scoring victory but outmanoeuvring its attackers to the point where they are the ones encircled and destroyed.

The results of this would not merely effect D-Day planning but the entire study and understanding of warfare.
 
Almost certainly the USSR weathers this and simply takes Stalingrad at a later date. Almost certainly, the USA vastly increases L-L and Stalin tries again in two to six months. WWII in Europe is prolonged by maybe three months but the outcome isn't changed at all.
 
Isn't the failure of Uranus thanks to Stalin killing every competent General in a fit of rage after a worse initial battle for the city basically how CalBear got the AANW TL going?
 
Isn't the failure of Uranus thanks to Stalin killing every competent General in a fit of rage after a worse initial battle for the city basically how CalBear got the AANW TL going?

I think it goes further than that; the reason Stalin goes berserk is because Stalingrad actually falls IIRC.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
A lot depends on why Uranus fails. A realistic failure of Uranus is probably that it works slow enough that the Germans can escape Stalingrad.

Now you said Utter Disaster without a POD, so l start trying to work on a worse case that is not laughable. I guess a bunch of things go wrong because of mistakes by the Soviet commanders. Germans have better intel. Supply issues for Soviet units (fuel perhaps). Soviets slow to exploit success, and tend to attack into strength not weakness. Germans hold some portion of the budge. The Kursk is probably in a different location, Germans probably attack to restore some part of the Don river defensive line. Then the Russians go on the offensive in late 43 and stay on the offensive the rest of the war. Depending on the size of additional Soviet losses or German non-losses in Uranus, the war last weeks to months later. Maybe even long enough for a nuclear sunrise over Germany.
 
Best case scenario for the Germans (and worst case for the Soviets) is a repeat of Operation Mars, which, according to some historians, was supposed to be the main Soviet operation of winter 1942, but got downgraded to a footnote in official histories after it's humiliating failure. If Stalin could shrug off the failure of Mars he could probably survive the failure of Uranus too, though it might be the end of Zhukov's career.

It should be noted that even though Mars was a failure for the Soviets the German forces defending the Rzhev were gutted sufficiently that they would be withdrawn a couple of months later to build up forces for the Kursk offensive, it's possible an alt-Uranus may bring about a similar shortening of the front in the Stalingrad sector.
 

Deleted member 1487

I'm just curious how this would even happen. The Axis lines were weak on the flanks, there wasn't a reserve in place, and the Soviets were too strong. Maybe if Hitler let the 6th army retreat immediately it might overrun the encircling forces, but it was also pretty worn down after effectively taking Stalingrad in October to really be able to retreat through an encirclement. And I don't see Hitler allowing this. Perhaps if the case was made that there wasn't the air supply available to allow that and Hitler bought it, plus all the Tunisian reinforcements instead go East to help 6th army that would be possible, but that means abandoning Africa and probably the Afrika Korps. After that you'd probably need to abandon the Caucasus and fall back off the Don river to shorten supply lines and free up reserves to hold the line in Sicily, effectively ending up where they were in June 1942 by the end of the year or in January before Operation Little Saturn.
 
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