WI: Operation Lila succeeds?

In November 1942 the Germans attempted to seize the French fleet at Toulon in Operation Lila, but the French successfully managed to stall this attempt and scuttled 77 vessels with only 36 small ones being captured. What if the Germans captured the majority of the ships at Toulon? How does this effect Allied operations in the Med in 1943 and what resources might need to be diverted to counter this problem?
 
I think it has no or very little effect. The Germans lack fuel, the ships are all marked in French and hard to operate. By the time the Germans get to operate them with any effect, Anvil is around the corner.
 

Driftless

Donor
If they could seize the Strasbourg & Dunkerque, that would have been a coup - even as fleet-in-being. The crusiers and destroyers would have been useful gravy. Just having sail-able fighting ships in the Med would give the British command nightmares - even if they never left port.

The bigger difficulty might be coming up with useful crews. They'd need some trustworthy (i.e. German) and trained crews in the key weapons and command and control roles. By 1942, the Germans didn't have a real surplus there with experience on capital ships. Maybe they borrow cadres from their port-bound German ships?
 
The bigger difficulty might be coming up with useful crews. They'd need some trustworthy (i.e. German) and trained crews in the key weapons and command and control roles. By 1942, the Germans didn't have a real surplus there with experience on capital ships. Maybe they borrow cadres from their port-bound German ships?

Perhaps they could give them to the Italians?
 

Deleted member 1487

They could only be used as a fleet in being, as the Allies would likely not know they weren't usable for lack of fuel, but it would easily prevent Operation Dragoon and potentially even Anzio. There would be a hell of a lot of extra caution in the Mediterranean, perhaps even heading off the Sardinia invasion, though no way it would effect the Sicily landings. Overall probably slows down the Mediterranean a fair bit and a lot of bombing effort is diverted from Italy and Germany to sink the French ships. It doesn't effect the outcome of the war, but is a pretty serious boon to the Germans for no added investment on their part. The French ships would be like what the Scharnhorst was in Brest for the RAF/RN, but much further away and a lot harder to hit; it would suck in a ton of effort to sink and divert attention from more serious targets, like Italian industry and perhaps even Austria. I mean look at how much effort the Brits put into sinking the Tirpitz, which was a useless hunk of steel that never did anything other than scare the Brits from port.
 

Driftless

Donor
Perhaps they could give them to the Italians?

That could work, or a combination of German & Italian crews. (That would make for an interesting dynamic... ;) )

Did the Italians have sufficient crew strength where they could effectively support selectively upgrading to their fleet? Perhaps swap out older less capable ships for more capable, regardless of country of origin?

Finding sufficient capabale crews might be a tougher calculation for the Strasbourg and Dunkerque. You'd likely need to borrow crews from across the Italian capital ships.

Regarding the Crusiers; how would you rank the ships of the French fleet at Toulon against their Regia Marina's counterparts? Algerie' vs Eugenio di Savoia? - that kind of comparison
 

Saphroneth

Banned
I'll start the cruiser comparison.

Data from Wiki:

Algerie is a treaty cruiser, but a really good one.
31 knots speed, 8700 nm range at 15 knots
4x2 203mm/55 guns (Hence, a heavy cruiser)
6x2 100mm/45 guns
16 37mm AA
36 13.2mm AA
2x3 torpedo tubes

armour:

main belt 120 mm (4.75in)
transverse bulkheads: 70 mm (2.75in)
longitudinal bulkheads: 40 mm (1.5in)
main deck: 80 mm (3in-1in)
turrets: 95 mm (3.75in) (faces), 70 mm (2.75in) (sides and roofs)
control tower: 70 to 95 mm (2.75in-3.75in)
torpedo bulkhead



Eugenio de Savoie is a smaller ship, a CL instead of a CA.
Max speed 36.5 knots, but less range than Algerie at a slightly lower cruise speed.


Armament:
8 × 152 mm
6 x 100 mm
8 × 37/50 mm AA
12 × 13.2 mm
Armour:
35 mm deck
70 mm main belt
90 mm turrets
100 mm conning tower



So E de S has the advantage in speed only - though she does have slightly fewer crew.
 
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