WI: Oilfields more accessible to the Axis

Deleted member 1487

Right, the USA had been doing pipelines, that was an outgrowth of well casing production.

USA had a lot of manufacturing slack in that field.
Greater Germany, not so much

Then we are back to what loses its steel allocations so pipelines can be built?
The Russians had been building pipelines from the late 19th century, so it is more likely than not that the 20th century Germans could have done so if needed. Question is what don't they build instead, which if it is enough oil might be some of the synthetic facilities that were incomplete by the end of the war IOTL.
 
According to Wikipaedia (which I admit is not the most trustworthy of sources) this one was built between 1932 and 1935.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirkuk–Haifa_oil_pipeline

I should have been more clear.

By the Great Depression, the US had over 120,000 miles of Oil and Gas pipeline, up to 24" diameter and 40' long sections of seamless construction.

So if oil was discovered in Germany during the 1930s they could of built pipelines to bring the oil to refinery

We have gone over similar with Oil discovery in Libya in this time, the infrastructure will take a decade.

Oil prices were low at this point, who is going to bankroll the expensive infrastructure needed? what else doesn't get made for this, handwaving synthetic oil from coal plants to regular Oil refineries, I'm not arguing against that.

Nazis just were not into planning long term development beyond what made for show-off programs, like the Olympics or Autobahns that hardly anyone had cars to drive on. Oil is long term, and risky
 

Lusitania

Donor
I should have been more clear.

By the Great Depression, the US had over 120,000 miles of Oil and Gas pipeline, up to 24" diameter and 40' long sections of seamless construction.



We have gone over similar with Oil discovery in Libya in this time, the infrastructure will take a decade.

Oil prices were low at this point, who is going to bankroll the expensive infrastructure needed? what else doesn't get made for this, handwaving synthetic oil from coal plants to regular Oil refineries, I'm not arguing against that.

Nazis just were not into planning long term development beyond what made for show-off programs, like the Olympics or Autobahns that hardly anyone had cars to drive on. Oil is long term, and risky

The issue is how easily can they obtain the oil. Libyan oil is not feasible at the low prices just like other sources of oil not feasible at the low prices. So in early 1930s they not get developed. But in the later 1930s as war became certain then developing this oil that would not be cut off becomes priority.
 
The issue is how easily can they obtain the oil. Libyan oil is not feasible at the low prices just like other sources of oil not feasible at the low prices. So in early 1930s they not get developed. But in the later 1930s as war became certain then developing this oil that would not be cut off becomes priority.
It's Italian, so not under direct German control in the 1930s; Mussolini didn't want a war in 1939, and wouldn't have been planning the (extremely expensive) infrastructure buildup this would require (not just to drill the wells, but to transport the oil to the ports, and from the ports to Italy proper). Libyan ports famously had issues supplying the Afrika Corps during the war; now we also have to add in developing them enough to ship fuel back to Italy (and ignoring the fact that they would be extremely tempting targets once the war broke out; British submarines would feast on Libyan oil shipments, and there would certainly be at least some planning done for raids on the docks themselves, even if they proved infeasible in practice).

More broadly, the oil still has to get to the front lines, which means Germany still runs into the same logistics issues. By the time the oil situation became critical OTL, the USSR had already managed to halt the 1941 German advance, and would be able to do the same for 1942, even if in a less stunning fashion than Stalingrad. Meanwhile the US is still producing everything at a rate the Axis can't hope to reach (and Italian oil does absolutely nothing for the Japanese, who really need the oil the most).
 

Lusitania

Donor
It's Italian, so not under direct German control in the 1930s; Mussolini didn't want a war in 1939, and wouldn't have been planning the (extremely expensive) infrastructure buildup this would require (not just to drill the wells, but to transport the oil to the ports, and from the ports to Italy proper). Libyan ports famously had issues supplying the Afrika Corps during the war; now we also have to add in developing them enough to ship fuel back to Italy (and ignoring the fact that they would be extremely tempting targets once the war broke out; British submarines would feast on Libyan oil shipments, and there would certainly be at least some planning done for raids on the docks themselves, even if they proved infeasible in practice).

More broadly, the oil still has to get to the front lines, which means Germany still runs into the same logistics issues. By the time the oil situation became critical OTL, the USSR had already managed to halt the 1941 German advance, and would be able to do the same for 1942, even if in a less stunning fashion than Stalingrad. Meanwhile the US is still producing everything at a rate the Axis can't hope to reach (and Italian oil does absolutely nothing for the Japanese, who really need the oil the most).
We were not talking about oil in Libya but oil discovered in Germany. Oil in North Africa is not feasible and not practical in 1930s.
 
This is from the same source as the earlier spreadsheets on crude petroleum production. Unfortunately the source didn't have any information for 1942-44.

German Oil Imports 1931-41.png
 
We have gone over similar with Oil discovery in Libya in this time, the infrastructure will take a decade.

Oil prices were low at this point, who is going to bankroll the expensive infrastructure needed? what else doesn't get made for this, handwaving synthetic oil from coal plants to regular Oil refineries, I'm not arguing against that.

Nazis just were not into planning long term development beyond what made for show-off programs, like the Olympics or Autobahns that hardly anyone had cars to drive on. Oil is long term, and risky
We've already come to the conclusion that the oil will have to be discovered in the early 1930s or even the late 1920s for it to be produced in quantity by the second half of the 1930s.

AFAIK conventional oil wells and pipelines are cheaper to build than synthetic oil plants. Again AFIAK the synthetic oil program was considered to be a very expensive at the time for Nazi Germany (and because of the large amount of coal required very inefficient) but for them it was better than nothing. I don't understand why using the resources used to build synthetic oil plants IOTL to build oil refineries is handwaving.

IOTL Germany did have the Four Year Plan to reduce the country's dependence on imported raw materials. IOTL they built synthetic oil plants and developed an oil shale industry to reduce their dependence on imported oil. ITTL they use the same resources to develop their oilfields to reduce their dependence on imported oil, because AFAIK it's cheaper and more efficient than synthetic oil and shale oil.
 
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We've already come to the conclusion that the oil will have to be discovered in the early 1930s or even the late 1920s for it to be produced in quantity by the second half of the 1930s.

AFAIK conventional oil wells and pipelines are cheaper to build than synthetic oil plants. Again AFIAK the synthetic oil program was considered to be a very expensive at the time for Nazi Germany (and because of the large amount of coal required very inefficient) but for them it was better than nothing. I don't understand why using the resources used to build synthetic oil plants IOTL to build oil refineries is handwaving.

IOTL Germany did have the Four Year Plan to reduce the country's dependence on imported raw materials. IOTL they built synthetic oil plants and developed an oil shale industry to reduce their dependence on imported oil. ITTL they use the same resources to develop their oilfields to reduce their dependence on imported oil, because AFAIK it's cheaper and more efficient than synthetic oil and shale oil.
As the oil will be discovered about 10 years before the war started IOTL, one of the first questions is how much will Weimar Germany be affected? Could the NSDAP still come to power with a better German economy? When will Austria and the Netherlands start looking for oil in their territory?
 

Deleted member 1487

As the oil will be discovered about 10 years before the war started IOTL, one of the first questions is how much will Weimar Germany be affected? Could the NSDAP still come to power with a better German economy? When will Austria and the Netherlands start looking for oil in their territory?
What oil fields are being discovered? It is highly unlikely that the amounts of oil found would be remotely enough to improve the German economy during the Weimar period given the glut of US oil on the markets. Austria had the real oil prize anyway. As it was the Vienna basin where Matzen is was already a known oil area and being searched, but given the lack of funding at the time and the German efforts looking in the area during the war it still wasn't found, which mean Austria on it's own wouldn't find it.
 
What oil fields are being discovered? It is highly unlikely that the amounts of oil found would be remotely enough to improve the German economy during the Weimar period given the glut of US oil on the markets. Austria had the real oil prize anyway. As it was the Vienna basin where Matzen is was already a known oil area and being searched, but given the lack of funding at the time and the German efforts looking in the area during the war it still wasn't found, which mean Austria on it's own wouldn't find it.
I haven't reread all of the thread, but didn't we say the North German, Matzen, and Schoonebeek oilfields were discovered earlier?
 

Deleted member 1487

I haven't reread all of the thread, but didn't we say the North German, Matzen, and Schoonebeek oilfields were discovered earlier?
Matzen is in Austria, Schoonebeek is in the Netherlands. The North German fields are relatively minor in comparison with those. That really doesn't help Germany until Austria is annexed. IIRC the Matzen field is pretty deep too, so isn't readily accessible to the methods of the 1930s.
 
Matzen is in Austria, Schoonebeek is in the Netherlands. The North German fields are relatively minor in comparison with those. That really doesn't help Germany until Austria is annexed. IIRC the Matzen field is pretty deep too, so isn't readily accessible to the methods of the 1930s.
A US independent, Foster Petroleum was able to get good find in the Oklahoma City vicinity, around 6600 feet down in 1930

I believe that field was discovered by the Soviets when they were in control of that part of Austria in 1949, where they stayed till 1955, and was at 8500 feet for the shallow deposits. US Majors were doing up to 10,000 feet deep before the war, if research looked good.

Before the War, Socony was contracted to do exploration, but their licenses got yanked by the Nazis in '39 or '40, and I believe the Soviets just finished what they had started.
 
Matzen is in Austria, Schoonebeek is in the Netherlands. The North German fields are relatively minor in comparison with those. That really doesn't help Germany until Austria is annexed. IIRC the Matzen field is pretty deep too, so isn't readily accessible to the methods of the 1930s.

A US independent, Foster Petroleum was able to get good find in the Oklahoma City vicinity, around 6600 feet down in 1930

I believe that field was discovered by the Soviets when they were in control of that part of Austria in 1949, where they stayed till 1955, and was at 8500 feet for the shallow deposits. US Majors were doing up to 10,000 feet deep before the war, if research looked good.

Before the War, Socony was contracted to do exploration, but their licenses got yanked by the Nazis in '39 or '40, and I believe the Soviets just finished what they had started.

my understanding they tripled domestic oil production during wartime, with Austrian oilfields (excluding Matzen) largely responsible for increase (up to total of 12m barrels per anum)

the point being that was THE area getting most intense development, an earlier annexation or delayed invasion of USSR (which monopolized their "oil corps") not unlikely they discover Matzen? but if not they still were reaping increased oil.
 
Britain has plentiful access to oil via her concessions in Persia and Mexico and the fact that she "Rules the Waves", so the fact she lacks domestic oil resources wasen't really a concern.

True Story: during WW ii, Britain produced oil in Sherwood Forest. There was a known small deposit of oil there. In peacetime, it wasn't worth exploiting. But during the Battle of the Atlantic, oil that didn't have to be shipped was too useful to pass up.

British drillers were all out in the Middle East, so a gang of American "roughnecks" was brought over to drill the wells.
As for the Kriegsmarine... Germany doesn't have a lot of shipyards, skilled dock workers and naval crewmen, etc.

Germany had lots of shipyards, shipbuilders, and sailors. Gemany had one of the largest merchant fleets in the world, and hundreds of km of coastline, from the Dutch border to eastern Prussia. While the Kriegsmarine never had a large battle fleet, it had thousands of brown-water vessels: minelayers, minesweepers, escorts, gunboats, torpedo boats, net tenders, patrol boats...
 

Deleted member 1487

my understanding they tripled domestic oil production during wartime, with Austrian oilfields (excluding Matzen) largely responsible for increase (up to total of 12m barrels per anum)

the point being that was THE area getting most intense development, an earlier annexation or delayed invasion of USSR (which monopolized their "oil corps") not unlikely they discover Matzen? but if not they still were reaping increased oil.
The question is at what depth were they exploring?
 
A US independent, Foster Petroleum was able to get good find in the Oklahoma City vicinity, around 6600 feet down in 1930
State of the art in 1930 was apparently Standard Mascot well one, drilled in Kern County California, 9,629 feet. So if someone takes it into their head to go poking deep, and has the budget to hire in the best of the best, 10k feet or 3KM is probably about the limit.
 
my understanding they tripled domestic oil production during wartime, with Austrian oilfields (excluding Matzen) largely responsible for increase (up to total of 12m barrels per anum)

the point being that was THE area getting most intense development, an earlier annexation or delayed invasion of USSR (which monopolized their "oil corps") not unlikely they discover Matzen? but if not they still were reaping increased oil.

The question is at what depth were they exploring?

State of the art in 1930 was apparently Standard Mascot well one, drilled in Kern County California, 9,629 feet. So if someone takes it into their head to go poking deep, and has the budget to hire in the best of the best, 10k feet or 3KM is probably about the limit.

"In 1949, Matzen, the largest oil field in Central Europe, was discovered. The Matzen field was found by shallow drilling" https://www2.uibk.ac.at/downloads/oegg/Band_92_235_262.pdf

there is extensive detail, the short answer is that NO drilling reached 3,000M until 1957 (edit. NO drilling in Austria, Matzen would have been found when their exploration was hovering between 1,000M - 2,000M)
 
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