WI: Odoacer becomes Roman emperor?

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Deleted member 67076

Odoacer, for those of you who don't know, was the Gothic general who deposed the last western Roman Emperor, Romulus Augustus in 476 and established the kingdom of Italy. What if, instead he decides to take the purple and crown himself, Roman emperor of the West and what effects would this have?
 
Odoacer, for those of you who don't know, was the Gothic general who deposed the last western Roman Emperor, Romulus Augustus in 476 and established the kingdom of Italy. What if, instead he decides to take the purple and crown himself, Roman emperor of the West and what effects would this have?
There were a lot of Germans at the very top of the Western Roman Empire in the 5-th century A.D. Actually some of them ruled the WRE.
Why do you think they did not become emperors? Didn't they like purple clothes or gold crowns? Or they did not want to see their faces and names on the imperial coins?
No, that was not the point.
The point was that a German could not take the purple in the WRE. Actually only an 'ethnic Roman' could become the emperor.

You may read this thread: Question regarding German emperors in ancient Rome to get to know further.
 
There were a lot of Germans at the very top of the Western Roman Empire in the 5-th century A.D. Actually some of them ruled the WRE.
Why do you think they did not become emperors? Didn't they like purple clothes or gold crowns? Or they did not want to see their faces and names on the imperial coins?
No, that was not the point.
The point was that a German could not take the purple in the WRE. Actually only an 'ethnic Roman' could become the emperor.

You may read this thread: Question regarding German emperors in ancient Rome to get to know further.
If a man such as Odoecer wanted to become emperor and thought he could fend off the east, then there was nothing that was going to stop him.


Septimus Severus for example was just as Roman as Stilicho. The thing is, Stilicho and others found it easier and safer to control the emperor as a kinda puppet. It wasn't that they couldn't become emperors, it's that they didn't see it as the best option.

Now if Odoecer takes that title of Western Roman Emperor, there's a pretty big chance the east isn't going to recognize him and use this as an excuse to gain control of Italy.
 
It might be plausible that Odoacer declares himself emperor, and Constantinople doesn't recognize him, but still doesn't do shit about it. WRE turns into a German-controlled backwater, and you could theoretically have a German rump state survive to present times that is still technically the Roman empire.
 

Deleted member 67076

It might be plausible that Odoacer declares himself emperor, and Constantinople doesn't recognize him, but still doesn't do shit about it. WRE turns into a German-controlled backwater, and you could theoretically have a German rump state survive to present times that is still technically the Roman empire.
Why would it be backwater? Also assuming it survives until the 500s with minimal Eastern intervention, would it be targeted by Justinian during his conquests?
 
The east is going to attack Italy sooner or later.

Or they would just send another Germanic tribe - like say the Ostrogoths or the Gepids to go after Odoacer and do much of the dirty work for them and then send the Byzantine army to reconquer the Italian boot!
 
Or they would just send another Germanic tribe - like say the Ostrogoths or the Gepids to go after Odoacer and do much of the dirty work for them and then send the Byzantine army to reconquer the Italian boot!

The thing is that in the very least they will want southern italy, Southern Italy is a necessary buffer between the vulnerable Epriote coast, it gives them complete control of the Adriatic and Sicily is a breadbasket that would be useful to feeding the empire.
 
Odoacer, for those of you who don't know, was the Gothic general who deposed the last western Roman Emperor, Romulus Augustus in 476 and established the kingdom of Italy. What if, instead he decides to take the purple and crown himself, Roman emperor of the West and what effects would this have?

Romulus Augustulus was not the last western Roman Emperor. He was a usurper. The legitimate emperor, Julius Nepos, was alive and well in Dalmatia on the other side of the Adriatic. After Romulus Augustulus was deposed, Odoacer reluctantly accepted him as emperor (pressured by the eastern emperor), and struck coins bearing the image of Julius Nepos.

Nepos was assassinated by his generals a few years later (Odoacer may have even had a hand in this via Glycerius), allowing Odoacer to annex Dalmatia after a short fight.

Throughout his short reign, Odoacer relied heavily on the co-operation of the Roman Senate, appointing influetial senators in key positions and having, for the first time since the 3rd century, coins minted with the S(enatus) C(onsulto) legend. If he had declared himself emperor, the Romans (both nobility and commoners) would have probably stabbed him in the back at the first possible chance.
 
Romulus Augustulus was not the last western Roman Emperor. He was a usurper. The legitimate emperor, Julius Nepos, was alive and well in Dalmatia on the other side of the Adriatic. After Romulus Augustulus was deposed, Odoacer reluctantly accepted him as emperor (pressured by the eastern emperor), and struck coins bearing the image of Julius Nepos.

Nepos was assassinated by his generals a few years later (Odoacer may have even had a hand in this via Glycerius), allowing Odoacer to annex Dalmatia after a short fight.

Throughout his short reign, Odoacer relied heavily on the co-operation of the Roman Senate, appointing influetial senators in key positions and having, for the first time since the 3rd century, coins minted with the S(enatus) C(onsulto) legend. If he had declared himself emperor, the Romans (both nobility and commoners) would have probably stabbed him in the back at the first possible chance.

All of this is true.

Odoacer declaring himself Emperor will be an act of war, as far as Constantinople is concerned. I'd expect to see Zeno at least providing some material support to Julius Nepos, although memories of the debacle of 468 will be very, very fresh at this point.
 
All of this is true.

Odoacer declaring himself Emperor will be an act of war, as far as Constantinople is concerned. I'd expect to see Zeno at least providing some material support to Julius Nepos, although memories of the debacle of 468 will be very, very fresh at this point.
As long as Basiliscus doesn't manage to get control of the force they should be good. :p
 
All of this is true.

Odoacer declaring himself Emperor will be an act of war, as far as Constantinople is concerned. I'd expect to see Zeno at least providing some material support to Julius Nepos, although memories of the debacle of 468 will be very, very fresh at this point.

As long as Basiliscus doesn't manage to get control of the force they should be good. :p

My guess is he would send in the Goths early, though probably only half of them (either those under Theoderic Strabo or those under Theoderic Amal - OTL Theoderic the Great), appoint either one of the Theodorics as magister militum of the west and have him recognize Julius Nepos as emperor.

This could even lead to the western empire surviving in some form...
 
Beyond the legal problem of declaring himself emperor, there's the simple fact that the (Western) Roman Empire was a legal fiction. The Empire had long since withered away. Though some invader tribes pledged a modicum of allegiance to Rome, the truth was that all of Western Rome outside of Italy was under the control of one barbarian kingdom or another.

When the throne in Rome was left empty, no one in the rest of the "Empire" really noticed a change.
 
Yeah. If I may fly my contrarian colors--Romulus Augustus was merely the latest of quite a few pretenders, and Julius Nepos the latest of Eastern Empire backed strongmen whose title and authority were virtually meaningless. Personally, I count the last REAL Western Roman Emperor as Valentinian III--after him, "Western Emperors" are little more than local strongmen whose standing in Western Europe isn't any better than the various kings and chiefs that surround them, with a large number of them being usurpers.
 
Yeah. Personally, I count the last REAL Western Roman Emperor as Valentinian III--after him, "Western Emperors" are little more than local strongmen whose standing in Western Europe isn't any better than the various kings and chiefs that surround them, with a large number of them being usurpers.

Err...ever hear of Majorian?
 
The guy who usurped the throne from the guy who usurped it before him, and ruled for four years during which he launched a fairly impressive series of campaigns to "reestablish" the authority of the Western Empire and still got deposed by his own troops in the end?

Yeah. I have. Impressive as he can seem, in the end, he's just one of the better strongmen, who, once again, still ultimately failed.
 
What would you draw the line between a hypothetically successful strongman and a "real" Roman Emperor?

It can be a thin line--but having an orderly succession and conquests that don't evaporate when you die would count as definitely climbing out of the pit of 'local warlord who calls himself Emperor' to 'the real deal--or at least a reasonable facsimile'.
 
What would you draw the line between a hypothetically successful strongman and a "real" Roman Emperor?
And there is another question: - what is a 'legitimate Roman Emperor'? As opposed to 'usurper'.

But don't tell me that a legitimate Roman Emperor is someone appointed or proclaimed by the Roman Senate. That is not true and not valid since Octavianus Augustus.
* Now here I am speaking about the Western Roman Empire of the V-th century A.D. mostly. But it is true for the IV-th century as well.

What is a 'true' Roman Emperor?
That is someone proclaimed such by somebody and strong enough to enforce his authority over some part of the Roman territory for some period of time. (It so happened that he had to be ethnic Roman to be called that title).

What I would not call a 'true' emperor - a puppet, a Roman nobody of high birth fom noble senatorial family of pure ethnic Roman blood, a figurehead who was proclaimed an emperor by some Germanic warlord, a strongman lacking 'Roman ethnicity' to be proclaimed Emperor himself.
 
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