WI:Occitan speaking Poitou, Liguria, Arpitania and Piedmont

Brunaburh

Gone Fishin'
Occitan speaking Poitou, Liguria, Arpitania and Piedmont, how would that effect italy and france?

You need to be a little more specific, and I think you've got it arse about face. Languages don't just happen to be in places, the Latin dialects spoken in the areas are parts of a continuum with Occitan. For Liguria and Piedmont to speak Occitan you need there to be an Occitan political power over them which causes their dialects to accommodate towards Occitan rather than Florentine as OTL.

In this situation there would be a very different Italy and France.
 
You need to be a little more specific, and I think you've got it arse about face. Languages don't just happen to be in places, the Latin dialects spoken in the areas are parts of a continuum with Occitan. For Liguria and Piedmont to speak Occitan you need there to be an Occitan political power over them which causes their dialects to accommodate towards Occitan rather than Florentine as OTL.

In this situation there would be a very different Italy and France.


Perhaps if an occitan state annexes northern italy or vice versa it can happen, or Dante writes Divina in Occitan.
 
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Possible solution: William the Conqueror attacks Paris instead of England, which is used by the nobility in southern Frabce to become independent.The southern border of this greater Normandy would be the Loire, while Occitania could become a major power as this may butterfly the Albigensian crusade and Bartholomew night.Catalonia may be considered culturally Occitan, and perhaps Occitan influence could be projected over the Alps
 
Considering that Poitou used to speak Occitan until the early modern period and indeed was under the Duchy of Aquitaine, it shouldn't be too impossible. You'd just need something to sever the connection between Paris/northern France and the rest of modern France, which would take a very early POD.
 
Possible solution: William the Conqueror attacks Paris instead of England, which is used by the nobility in southern Frabce to become independent.The southern border of this greater Normandy would be the Loire, while Occitania could become a major power as this may butterfly the Albigensian crusade and Bartholomew night.Catalonia may be considered culturally Occitan, and perhaps Occitan influence could be projected over the Alps

"Occitania" is not a polity. You had the Duke of Aquitaine, the Count of Toulouse, the Count of Barcelona and the Count of Provence, all competing for power between themselves and with local lords. Before any cultural extension, you would need political union, quite difficult given the chaos that would follow the desintegration of the French Kingdom.
 
"Occitania" is not a polity. You had the Duke of Aquitaine, the Count of Toulouse, the Count of Barcelona and the Count of Provence, all competing for power between themselves and with local lords. Before any cultural extension, you would need political union, quite difficult given the chaos that would follow the desintegration of the French Kingdom.

I wonder if you could conceivably have a "South Francia" which would indeed consist of those territories, whereas we'd compensate West Francia by giving it most of the relevant Middle Francian territories.
 
Considering that Poitou used to speak Occitan until the early modern period and indeed was under the Duchy of Aquitaine, it shouldn't be too impossible. You'd just need something to sever the connection between Paris/northern France and the rest of modern France, which would take a very early POD.

No, Poitou already used Poitevin (an oil language) since the middle Ages. The south of Poitou may have used locally occitan until the 12th c., with some influences until the 13th c., but that's it. Of course, the ducal court used occitan, but it was not the language of the people.
 
What about the William IX of Aquitaine retaining Toulouse and then after a few generations the Duke of Aquitaine and Toulouse revolt against the French crown just like how Portugal became independent?
 
Who would create such an entity ?
There would have to be a different division of the Carolingians leaving a surviving Kingdom of Aquitaine.

For Piedmont and surrounds to speak an OccitanoRomance (rather than Occitan specifically) a possible surviving Arelat might do. It'd be a form of Provencal which became rather popular in the high middle ages (assuming that popularity isn't butterflies away).
 
There would have to be a different division of the Carolingians leaving a surviving Kingdom of Aquitaine.

For Piedmont and surrounds to speak an OccitanoRomance (rather than Occitan specifically) a possible surviving Arelat might do. It'd be a form of Provencal which became rather popular in the high middle ages (assuming that popularity isn't butterflies away).
Actually, having just Dante write Divina Comedia in occitan not tuscan might work as POD..Imho having Provence united to Northern Italy will Occitanize Northern Italy not the other way around since occitan was the linguafranca there at one point, a reformation pod can also work have protestant occitans go to piedmont.
 
Actually, having just Dante write Divina Comedia in occitan not tuscan might work as POD..Imho having Provence united to Northern Italy will Occitanize Northern Italy not the other way around since occitan was the linguafranca there at one point, a reformation pod can also work have protestant occitans go to piedmont.
Dante wrote in Tuscan as he was a Florentine and the Florentine dialect was close to but less prestigious than Tuscan.
Considering what was going on in Florence at the time I'm not sure why Dante would write in Provencal (assuming that's the dialect you mean) unless he's abandoned any loyalty to the city. In which case the Divine Comedy isn't written like OTL anyway.
 
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