WI: Novgorod unites Russia, not Muscowy

Zeldar155

Banned
What if the trade republic of Novgorod unites Russia instead of Muscowy as in OTL?
Would this "trade russia" be more enlightened and stronger?
 
Novgorod would require a better warmaking system than having the Archbishop's Polk and the levies as the only option. The more professional Muscovite armies defeated them repeatedly, and ditto for Sweden. By the mid-14th. c. things weren't looking overall positively for Novgorod.
 
Guys

I think when this has been discussed before the big handicap for Novorod is it's dependency on imported food. It's too far north to be able to feed itself so very vulnerable to hostile forces.

Steve
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Hmm, Novgorodian Russia. Would they be able to expand south? I thought Moscow was geographically in the best position to unite Russia.
 
Hmm, Novgorodian Russia. Would they be able to expand south? I thought Moscow was geographically in the best position to unite Russia.
The problem with Moscow is that originally it was somewhat isolated. Yes you had the rivers, but they ice over in the winter and there are a ton of forests near by. This however made it extremely good for discouraging Mongol attacks which is how Muscovy made its mark originally and it was later supported against Lithuania. If you butterfly those aspects away, it's possible that Moscow itself never becomes a hugely important city which makes Novgorod's life a lot easier.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
The problem with Moscow is that originally it was somewhat isolated. Yes you had the rivers, but they ice over in the winter and there are a ton of forests near by. This however made it extremely good for discouraging Mongol attacks which is how Muscovy made its mark originally and it was later supported against Lithuania. If you butterfly those aspects away, it's possible that Moscow itself never becomes a hugely important city which makes Novgorod's life a lot easier.
Yes, but could Novgorod expand south? That's my question.
 
The problem with Moscow is that originally it was somewhat isolated. Yes you had the rivers, but they ice over in the winter and there are a ton of forests near by. This however made it extremely good for discouraging Mongol attacks which is how Muscovy made its mark originally and it was later supported against Lithuania. If you butterfly those aspects away, it's possible that Moscow itself never becomes a hugely important city which makes Novgorod's life a lot easier.
In the winter they were less isolated, the ice over rivers and bogs made good way for invading armies.
There were a political moment that was more important. The princes of Moscow were more successful in collaborating with Tartars.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Next question:
Would Novgorod go south? Isn't Estonia and southern Finland more lucrative for expansion if they can control eastern Baltic Sea trade?
 
Next question:
Would Novgorod go south? Isn't Estonia and southern Finland more lucrative for expansion if they can control eastern Baltic Sea trade?
In my POD there were refugees from Tver and Moscow at Novgorod, who would have argued for a campaign directed south and there was a great need to recapture the food growing areas around Tver and Moscow. There was also a religious motivation as the Muslim Golden Horde had taken that area. By contrast relations with the Hanseatic League remained good, which enabled Novgorod, while funds or credit lasted, to buy food and import mercenaries to train its army.
 
In my POD there were refugees from Tver and Moscow at Novgorod, who would have argued for a campaign directed south and there was a great need to recapture the food growing areas around Tver and Moscow. There was also a religious motivation as the Muslim Golden Horde had taken that area. By contrast relations with the Hanseatic League remained good, which enabled Novgorod, while funds or credit lasted, to buy food and import mercenaries to train its army.
Do you think it's possible for a stronger Novgorod to keep Moscow as a kind of southern frontier territory, getting some of its resources of food for instance, while keeping it from eventually eating it's parent?

Would a Denmark that was more successful in controlling Sweden earlier make for a weaker Baltic opponent or a stronger? Yes they'd have Sweden, but they'd also be expending energy keeping it pacified rather than going on into Finland or running around Neva River.
 
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