i just finished watching Apoaclypto on IFC and this thought just occurred to me. what if, with whatever necessary POD, a major European power of the time other than Spain was the first to reach the New World and encounter the Caribs, the Mayans, the Aztecs, and whatever other peoples? presumably, there would still be a disease exchange, but would the Aztecs and whoever else be conquered as quickly as IOTL if, say, it was the English who arrived at Tenochtitlan?
WI: Not the Spanish in Mexico/Central America
- Thread starter oshron
- Start date
Horsehit. The Spanish only financed the journey, it was Italians like Columbus and Giovanni Caboto that made the journeys. Portugal is bound to stumble upon Brazil eventually, but that's besides the point.
Any of the European naval powers could have done it. Whose to say England, or France, wouldn't finance Columbus's mission if the Spanish don't? Maybe he finds luck in an Italian state?
if it wasn't for the unrest and disargeement between specificly Sweden and the dominant Denmark, in Kalmar Union, they certainly had the know-how and Naval capilities (and faint memories of a land beyond Greenland) to go for it, if you'd butterfly away some of the disargeements (Denmarks wars in north Germany vs. Swedens want to trade with mainland europe)
The main is about the currents and the winds. England and French expeditions have a better time going in North America, while Spain and Portugal (critically with bases in Atlantic islands) were more prone to go in Central and Southern America.
You have first to make the other than Spain, having strong harbours on Atlantic and at least one atlantic island.
The better placed guys were Portuguese in this configuration.
You have first to make the other than Spain, having strong harbours on Atlantic and at least one atlantic island.
The better placed guys were Portuguese in this configuration.
The Danes in Central America? It would be a really long sea-trail without land to ravitail, or it would cost a coastal way trhough all North America. Did the Danes had the possibility to do that?
That is if they took advantage of their union with Norway and focused more on Greenland, Iceland and the lands west of it.
Remember ... the PoD that would make it possible for Denmark to get to the new world first, would be stabalising the Kalmar Union without the semi-constant unrest and disargeements between Denmark and Sweden (Norway were for the most part the youngest/weakest part of the union) ... no unrest would mean that they could focus on reestablishing their oversea territories from the Viking Age
The Ming did not have the capability nor the desire to sail massive ships all the way to Mexico.
I'd daresay the Portuguese could do it, probably not the Danes. However, Portugal also had far more lucrative opportunities in spices and what not. It would be interesting to see a split Central America- Portuguese take the Yucatan south to Panama, Spain takes Mexico, Portugal takes Brazil etc.
You also have to consider Tordesillas.
I'd daresay the Portuguese could do it, probably not the Danes. However, Portugal also had far more lucrative opportunities in spices and what not. It would be interesting to see a split Central America- Portuguese take the Yucatan south to Panama, Spain takes Mexico, Portugal takes Brazil etc.
You also have to consider Tordesillas.
What was keeping the Moors from doing so? Cultural, technological, or economic issues?
IIRC their ships were not ocean-going, but more suited to warfare in the Med.
Then again, when you see the Santa Maria you get shocked that THAT was ocean-going!
Best Regards
Grey Wolf
Well, the Moors of XIII could have the technology to do that, but the fact they were under castillan AND moroccan pressure, their mediterranean dynamic and quite few harbours with naval building capacity were huge limitations.
And not even dreaming about colonizing the Canarias, or the Azores that were a "general repetition" of the discoveries of Americas.
For the Moors
LSCatilina said:
For the Morrocans, because of their focus on controlling the african-mediterranean tradeways that were on land. Settleing the Atlantic islands (that were known) would have been meaningless (when the Europeans did this to overrun the morrocans).
Ah, so just like the Italians, they favored the traditional routes to getting spice and other goods.
Well, the Portuguese could have done it IOTL. Before going to Castile Columbus offered his services and his plan of a Western route to India to John II of Portugal in 1488. The king was affraid that Bartolomeu Dias had sunk in his attempt to reach the end of Africa, so he considered Columbus' idea. But when the fleet arrived back to Lisbon, proving that it was possible to sail around Africa then the Court concluded that the Western plan wasn't necessary.
So, if you have Bartolomeu Dias failing* in his travel then Columbus idea would probably be accepted. Apparently he planned to sail to Cape Verde first and then to West.
*Or you could also have Dias being more successful, and make him sail all the way to India instead of going back to Portugal. IOTL once he realized they rounded the Cape of Good Hope he wanted to continue the travel to East, but was forced to give up the idea by his crew. Make him imposing his will ITTL and he would be the first European to sail to India, and not Vasco da Gama. But due to this delay Columbus expedition could have already set sail from Lisbon when the news come back.
So, if you have Bartolomeu Dias failing* in his travel then Columbus idea would probably be accepted. Apparently he planned to sail to Cape Verde first and then to West.
*Or you could also have Dias being more successful, and make him sail all the way to India instead of going back to Portugal. IOTL once he realized they rounded the Cape of Good Hope he wanted to continue the travel to East, but was forced to give up the idea by his crew. Make him imposing his will ITTL and he would be the first European to sail to India, and not Vasco da Gama. But due to this delay Columbus expedition could have already set sail from Lisbon when the news come back.