WI Northern Nullification is Challenged...1843

You're welcome. The impression you had is a common impression with a lot of people. But if you actually read what people were writing at the time, it is pretty clear there were two completely separate movements...Abolitionism and Free Soilism...going on at the time, and the Free Soil movement was clearly and totally dominant.



You should read Version 2.0 of the timeline, in Post #44. I explain how the slavery issue is resolved there. You might be surprised with how it ends up being resolved.



Again, see Version 2.0 of the timeline. You might be in for some surprises. ;)


Crossed emails.:D;)

Steve
 
Robert

Ah. Caught up with the rest of the updates and seen that some of what I said have been overtaken by events.

Not sure it would be that easy for slaves to escape to the north in such large numbers. Given the distances involved, that they would be pretty conspicuous and would most of all have to escape from the plantations 1st of all. As such I doubt if such large numbers would get away or it would be so uneconomic because of that.

Well, we will have to disagree there. There is good reason to think that one primary reason why there were not a lot more escapes in OTL is that they were likely to be returned, even if they escaped into the North. A lot of slaves simply never tried to escape as a result. In OTL, to be really, truly safe, a slave escaping from Virginia or Kentucky, for example, had to make it all the way to Canada, which was, in fact, the Northern terminus of the Underground Railroad. In this scenario, he just has to make it to Ohio, Illinois, Indiana, or Pennsylvania. That's a LOT less distance he has to cover in order to really "escape," and given that fact, escape is going to become a lot more of an attractive option for slaves, especially in the Upper South.

This could be doubly significant, because, in OTL, the Upper South was the "breeding ground" where almost all of the slaves which supplied the slave markets of the Deep South were created. If the slave population of the Upper South is reduced significantly by an increase in escapes, the slave markets in the Deep South are going to start to run out of available merchandise P.D.Q.
 
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I just can't wait to see what happens when Imperlasim start rearing it's ugly head...I have a feeling that the US, being busy with it's own form of Imperlism in the total Annexation of Mexico, doesn't get into the fold...But the F.S.A, being one more inspired to gain more territory and increase industy could possibly use Liberia in an further inroads in Africa...As well as previously stated in the Carribean to help counterbalance the US.
 
I just can't wait to see what happens when Imperlasim start rearing it's ugly head...I have a feeling that the US, being busy with it's own form of Imperlism in the total Annexation of Mexico, doesn't get into the fold...But the F.S.A, being one more inspired to gain more territory and increase industy could possibly use Liberia in an further inroads in Africa...As well as previously stated in the Carribean to help counterbalance the US.

Yes, I agree, the U.S. would be occupied with trying to digest Mexico and so would likely opt out of the imperialist rush of the latter 19th century. But the F.S.A., with one active colony in Africa...and one that might be getting overcrowded at that...could very well get involved in the "Scramble for Africa" later in the century. And it might get involved in the Caribbean as well. We will see...;)
 
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Robert,

I was reading today and I saw that in 1850, the South exported $120,000,000 dollars worth of goods, but the total bank reserves in the South were under $20,000,000 which suggest either two things:

Planters were either in debt or did not have much cash on hand

Planters put their money in Northern Banks

Both do not bode well for the USA first few years of economic growth.

(I read this in The Cotton Kingdom by William Dodd, as part of the The Chronicles of America Series put out by Yale University)

I'm also sure that the US black population had a pretty high level growth up until the Civil War. I'm not sure where exactly plantation style agriculture would be present in Mexico as most of Northern Mexico would not support Cotton and traditionally was ranching land. Southern Mexico has more promise, but there were plenty of peons available to work the land. Where exactly is this plantation agriculture present?
 
Robert,

I was reading today and I saw that in 1850, the South exported $120,000,000 dollars worth of goods, but the total bank reserves in the South were under $20,000,000 which suggest either two things:

Planters were either in debt or did not have much cash on hand

Planters put their money in Northern Banks

Both do not bode well for the USA first few years of economic growth.

(I read this in The Cotton Kingdom by William Dodd, as part of the The Chronicles of America Series put out by Yale University)

Most likely it means planters put their money in Northern banks. However, with the separation, one would think that a Southern banking industry would soon arise to take up the slack.

I'm also sure that the US black population had a pretty high level growth up until the Civil War.

That's true. However, it is also true that most of the slaves in the slave markets during the 1840s through the 1860s came from the States of the upper South, especially Virginia. The population growth in the Deep South was being absorbed there, and most of the slaves born there were not being sold. If the breeding of slaves in Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and Kentucky is disrupted by increased escapism, that is going to seriously impact the supply of slaves available for sale.

I'm not sure where exactly plantation style agriculture would be present in Mexico as most of Northern Mexico would not support Cotton and traditionally was ranching land. Southern Mexico has more promise, but there were plenty of peons available to work the land. Where exactly is this plantation agriculture present?

First, it is a misconception that plantation agriculture wouldn't work in the Southwest. Arizona is today, for example, and has been for many years, one of the largest cotton producing regions in the country. Indeed, it produces more cotton than most States of the South do now. It would, of course, require the introduction of systems of irrigation and water control to make this work, but I can see the Whig Party in the United States make funding such a project...which might be inspired by the discovery of the ancient Hohokam and Anasazi irrigation systems by explorers in the region...along with funding an intercontinental railroad to transport the cotton to the markets, a major plank of their platforms. And since these appropriations would benefit Southerners, instead of being diverted to fund the growth of the North, they might get enough support to have them passed.

As far as the rest of Mexico, some of it would be suitable for intensive cotton cultivation, other parts would be suitable for other crops like tobacco, rice, and sugar. And there are other crops like cacao beans and coffee that might lend themselves to plantation agriculture as well.

As far as using the local peons to do the labor, that would probably happen in some cases, no doubt about it. But initially, the bias of Southern entrepreneurs setting themselves up in Mexico is likely going to be against using Mexican labor and in favor of bringing in slaves. Mexicans, especially the mixed-bloods and natives, during this time period had a reputation as "lazy, shiftless Greasers," as you will find them referred to in many period writings. Southern entrepreneurs of this time period will much prefer bringing in slaves, who, from experience, they know will work hard and be relatively productive under a good over-seer, rather than depend on such "unreliable" labor. It will only be as the price of slaves becomes prohibitive that most of them will likely turn to peon labor.
 
In the 1830s, South Carolina threatened to nullify recently passed federal tariff acts and prevent them from being enforced within the bounds of said State. In response, President Andrew Jackson made it clear that he intended to use military force against South Carolina if she proceeded with these actions, and South Carolina, in the end, backed down, defusing the crisis.

What is less known or appreciated is that the Northern States, beginning in the late 1830s and continuing onward from that time, effectively nullified not only federal legislation...in the form of the Fugitive Slave Act...but also a provision of the Constitution itself...the so-called Fugitive Slave Clause of the Constitution.

In 1842, the United States Supreme Court, in the Prigg v Pennsylvania decision, ruled that the Northern Nullification Acts (more popularly known as "Personal Liberty Laws") were unconstitutional. In response, in the following year, four States...Pennsylvania, New York, Ohio, and Vermont...passed new personal liberty laws in defiance of the Supreme Court's decision.

Unlike the situation with South Carolina in the 1830s, the Federal Government never threatened to use military force against those Northern States which were nullifying not only Federal Law, but the Constitution itself. But what if, rather than ignoring the issue, President John Tyler had decided to do just that?

Will the Northern States...just for the sake of the scenario, lets say the most radical (i.e. New England, along with possibly New York, Pennsylvania, and Ohio)...secede in protest?

If they do, what happens? Will there be war or, or will the South and the West allow "the erring sisters to go in peace?"
Better than even chance of the former, considering that this would interfere with the prosperity of the Planter Aristocracy and the Yankee Hirelings were percived as unable to fight in any case.

Like it or not, respect for States' Rights in the south were more than a bit conditional.

HTG
 
Incidentally, slavery or forms of debt peonage (i.e. Slavery in all but name) are more likely to be imposed on the Indios of Mexico, and smuggling of African slaves continued into the Civil War years.

HTG
 
That's true. However, it is also true that most of the slaves in the slave markets during the 1840s through the 1860s came from the States of the upper South, especially Virginia.

To nitpick, most of the slaves from the 1840s onwards who were sold came from the Eastern Coast states. A suprising number of South Carolina and Georgia slaves ended up further west, although not as many in percentage terms as those who came from the Upper South.

The population growth in the Deep South was being absorbed there, and most of the slaves born there were not being sold. If the breeding of slaves in Virginia, Maryland, Delaware and Kentucky is disrupted by increased escapism, that is going to seriously impact the supply of slaves available for sale.

Except that it won't really be disrupted, except _maybe_ in Delaware. The thing about successful slave runaways was that:

i) they tended to number only a few hundred a year throughout the entire South
ii) they were virtually all young unattached males
iii) they came almost exclusively from within a couple of hundred kilometres of free-soil territory
iv) the number of successful runaways never even came close to a few percent of the growth in the slave population in any given area.

Runaways were rare for all sorts of reasons. Firstly, they were mostly young unattached men, because moving a family of slaves was a lot harder, and because unattached men were the ones most likely to leave. Secondly they mostly came from within a couple of hundred kilometres of the border, because running further than that successfully was extremely difficult.

Whether the border for being a successful runaway was in Pennsylvania or Canada didn't matter all that much, because the challenge was making it through slave territory much more than free-soil territory. In other words, having the FSA break away isn't going to make much of a noticeable difference to the number of runaways. Even if it doubles the number of runaways in a year - hell, even if the number of runaways goes up by ten times - it makes damn-all difference, really.

Slavery in Delaware was marginal enough that it might push things over there (although I doubt it), but Maryland and Virginia will barely notice. And incidentally, the 1840s were when the decline of slavery in Virginia was reversed - in that decade, and afterward, the number of slaves in Virginia rose both in terms of absolute numbers and in terms of a percentage of the overall population.

First, it is a misconception that plantation agriculture wouldn't work in the Southwest. Arizona is today, for example, and has been for many years, one of the largest cotton producing regions in the country. Indeed, it produces more cotton than most States of the South do now.

Entirely different economic and social context. Slavery was legal in Arizona/New Mexico right up until the ACW... and the number of slaves in there was negligible. Total waste of time, from the slaveowner's point of view.

It turns out that slaveowners are really against much in the way of internal improvements. They're particularly against being taxed to pay for fixed improvements to land, and very much against big public works projects. The reason? Slaves are more mobile than land, so why pay money for taxes which will be spent in one place, when the slaveowner might want to move elsewhere? They saw no need to pay for expensive irrigation in Arizona, when there was still plenty of good cotton land available elsewhere for much cheaper. The Delta Country of Mississippi - some of the best cotton-growing land on the planet - was virtually untapped until after the ACW.

It would, of course, require the introduction of systems of irrigation and water control to make this work, but I can see the Whig Party in the United States make funding such a project...which might be inspired by the discovery of the ancient Hohokam and Anasazi irrigation systems by explorers in the region...

I really, really can't see that. There's no need to pay for expensive irrigation in the middle of a desert, and the railroad needed to transport the cotton to the world market, when there's plenty of cheap cotton land available in other areas without going to all that hassle.

along with funding an intercontinental railroad to transport the cotton to the markets, a major plank of their platforms.

I can see funding for a transcontinental railroad in the right circumstances, but cotton has nothing to do with it. (Think more of exploiting the copper of Sonora.)

And since these appropriations would benefit Southerners, instead of being diverted to fund the growth of the North, they might get enough support to have them passed.

You're seriously underestimating the broad Southern resistance to internal improvements, and particularly the resistance to the sort of improvements which would be needed to turn Arizona into decent cotton country. There's a reason the CSA included a ban on internal improvements in its constitution after secession, when they knew that the money spent would be on the South. (Hardly going to spend it in the North after secession, are they?)

As far as the rest of Mexico, some of it would be suitable for intensive cotton cultivation, other parts would be suitable for other crops like tobacco, rice, and sugar. And there are other crops like cacao beans and coffee that might lend themselves to plantation agriculture as well.

A few parts of Mexico are suitable for cotton, mostly in the north. The area around the Coahuila/Durango/Neuvo Leon state borders is about the best cotton country on the planet.

As for the rest... They might be used for plantation agriculture, but not slave plantation agriculture, or at least not for quite a while. See below.

As far as using the local peons to do the labor, that would probably happen in some cases, no doubt about it. But initially, the bias of Southern entrepreneurs setting themselves up in Mexico is likely going to be against using Mexican labor and in favor of bringing in slaves.

You're forgetting the cotton boom. This was an era when slave labour was being sucked out of everything else and into cotton. The profit in cotton is high enough that the prospect of setting up significant slave planations in Mexico for tobacco or coffee... Nope. Not until the profitably of cotton really crashes. Just too expensive, especially since the local labour in Mexico is dirt-cheap.

Mexicans, especially the mixed-bloods and natives, during this time period had a reputation as "lazy, shiftless Greasers," as you will find them referred to in many period writings. Southern entrepreneurs of this time period will much prefer bringing in slaves, who, from experience, they know will work hard and be relatively productive under a good over-seer, rather than depend on such "unreliable" labor. It will only be as the price of slaves becomes prohibitive that most of them will likely turn to peon labor.

Price isn't the only consideration. The more important one is the supply of slave labour, which is limited. Not enough slaves to go around, especially for anything other than cotton. Plenty of Mexicans willing to work for subsistence wages, though.

And incidentally, the big problem in most of Mexico is land ownership. Outside of the northern tier of states, the decent land is already owned by the locals. And it's not going to be confiscated, either - if there's one thing slaveowners respect, it's property rights. The cost of bringing expensive slaves and buying large amounts of land will be a huge disincentive to setting up slave plantations in everywhere except the extreme northeast, and maybe the Yucatan (if the guerrillas there can be suppressed... and they will be very nasty indeed.)
 
Entirely different economic and social context. Slavery was legal in Arizona/New Mexico right up until the ACW... and the number of slaves in there was negligible. Total waste of time, from the slaveowner's point of view.

It turns out that slaveowners are really against much in the way of internal improvements. They're particularly against being taxed to pay for fixed improvements to land, and very much against big public works projects. The reason? Slaves are more mobile than land, so why pay money for taxes which will be spent in one place, when the slaveowner might want to move elsewhere? They saw no need to pay for expensive irrigation in Arizona, when there was still plenty of good cotton land available elsewhere for much cheaper. The Delta Country of Mississippi - some of the best cotton-growing land on the planet - was virtually untapped until after the ACW.

That's very true. Only after the Civil War, was the government able to pay for the improvements that allowed for cultivation of the Delta such as the Levees and roads. Before the 1860s it was a howling wilderness. Most books on the blues reference this, but the best one I've read is by Alan Lomax and is titled "The Land Where The Blues Began". In it he talks about the struggles that built and drained the Delta and made it what it is today.

Also after doing some research, most of the water used for irrigating out west comes from aquifers deep under the Earth. I doubt the technology of the 1800s would be able to tap into this source of water and make the production of crops profitable.
 
Except that it won't really be disrupted, except _maybe_ in Delaware. The thing about successful slave runaways was that:

i) they tended to number only a few hundred a year throughout the entire South
ii) they were virtually all young unattached males
iii) they came almost exclusively from within a couple of hundred kilometres of free-soil territory
iv) the number of successful runaways never even came close to a few percent of the growth in the slave population in any given area.

Runaways were rare for all sorts of reasons. Firstly, they were mostly young unattached men, because moving a family of slaves was a lot harder, and because unattached men were the ones most likely to leave. Secondly they mostly came from within a couple of hundred kilometres of the border, because running further than that successfully was extremely difficult.

Whether the border for being a successful runaway was in Pennsylvania or Canada didn't matter all that much, because the challenge was making it through slave territory much more than free-soil territory. In other words, having the FSA break away isn't going to make much of a noticeable difference to the number of runaways. Even if it doubles the number of runaways in a year - hell, even if the number of runaways goes up by ten times - it makes damn-all difference, really.

The historical and economic analyses of slavery which I have consulted indicate otherwise. Without launching into a detailed analysis, I would simply state the obvious: if slave escapes were such a minor problem that affected so few Southern slaveowners, and the problem of escapism was so easily controlled, one might wonder why would enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act have become such a vital issue for the South? It was this issue, along with the issue of the right to take slaves into the territories, which almost every Southern State which made such declarations cited in their declarations of the reasons for secession in 1861. Obviously it was more of a problem than you are making out here.

And while your analysis of the slaves who escaped (young, unattached males within 200 kilometres of the border) may or may not be true...there were a number of highly publicized cases of slave women and their children escaping to the North (highly publicized, quite often, because they were caught in the North and returned under the Fugitive Slave Act)...it doesn't really answer the question of why the vast majority, even within that 200 kilometer area, did not even try. There is evidence (such as statements in the interviews with former slaves known as THE SLAVE NARRATIVES, for example) that a prime reason for this was that they knew that, even if they made it into the "free" states, they could be, and most likely would be, returned to slavery. This won't be the case in the ATL.

As I said in the timeline, this is a process which will occur gradually over a period of over 50 years. There won't be an instant flood of runaways across the border. But as time goes on, and as the slaves in the border States begin to realize that runaways aren't being returned, the floodgates will gradually open, and the population of slaves will begin to be affected.

[The production of cotton in Arizona today comes from an] Entirely different economic and social context. Slavery was legal in Arizona/New Mexico right up until the ACW... and the number of slaves in there was negligible. Total waste of time, from the slaveowner's point of view.

That's true...but that was, in large part, not due to the "economic and social context," but simply because most of the region had not been adequately explored and it's potential was not yet realized.

It turns out that slaveowners are really against much in the way of internal improvements. They're particularly against being taxed to pay for fixed improvements to land, and very much against big public works projects. The reason? Slaves are more mobile than land, so why pay money for taxes which will be spent in one place, when the slaveowner might want to move elsewhere? They saw no need to pay for expensive irrigation in Arizona, when there was still plenty of good cotton land available elsewhere for much cheaper. The Delta Country of Mississippi - some of the best cotton-growing land on the planet - was virtually untapped until after the ACW.

The fact is that there was quite a lot of internal improvements being made and funded in the South prior to the war. There was not much opposition in the South to internal improvements as such. The philosophy of the South was, however, that each State should fund it's own internal improvements, and, ideally, the private concerns which would benefit by them should fund them. It is true that much more in the way of internal improvements took place in the North, but that was, in large part, because those received government subsidies, primarily at the State level, but also from the federal government.

One factor which might mitigate against there being as much opposition to federal funding of improvements in the ATL is that they will be going into the Territories...which is land held in common by all of the States. It would likely be easier for the representatives of the various States to rally around that than there would be for support of internal improvements within an existing State.

I really, really can't see that. There's no need to pay for expensive irrigation in the middle of a desert, and the railroad needed to transport the cotton to the world market, when there's plenty of cheap cotton land available in other areas without going to all that hassle.

I can see funding for a transcontinental railroad in the right circumstances, but cotton has nothing to do with it. (Think more of exploiting the copper of Sonora.)

In OTL, the South was not opposed to funding a Continental Railroad as such...it was opposed to funding such a railroad running on a route which would have no benefit for the South. As for the irrigation projects, funding for the original Salt River Project and other major irrigation projects in Arizona prior to the 20th Century was done mostly by private stock companies. It is true that government funding would probably be needed for major water control projects...dams, for example...but, as mentioned above, there might not be as much opposition to such projects being carried out in the Territories, which are lands held in common by all the States, as there was to such projects being carried out to benefit the people of a particular State.

You're seriously underestimating the broad Southern resistance to internal improvements, and particularly the resistance to the sort of improvements which would be needed to turn Arizona into decent cotton country. There's a reason the CSA included a ban on internal improvements in its constitution after secession, when they knew that the money spent would be on the South. (Hardly going to spend it in the North after secession, are they?)

It is not really valid to use the Confederate experience as a guide in this case. The C.S.A., when it's Constitution was written, also didn't have any western territories in need of development. All of its undeveloped land was within STATES, which were seen as responsible for their own internal improvements. The United States in the ATL after the conquest of Mexico finds itself with a huge amount of undeveloped western territory, and the way it proceeds will also likely be different.

A few parts of Mexico are suitable for cotton, mostly in the north. The area around the Coahuila/Durango/Neuvo Leon state borders is about the best cotton country on the planet.

As for the rest... They might be used for plantation agriculture, but not slave plantation agriculture, or at least not for quite a while. See below.

You're forgetting the cotton boom. This was an era when slave labour was being sucked out of everything else and into cotton. The profit in cotton is high enough that the prospect of setting up significant slave planations in Mexico for tobacco or coffee... Nope. Not until the profitably of cotton really crashes. Just too expensive, especially since the local labour in Mexico is dirt-cheap.

Price isn't the only consideration. The more important one is the supply of slave labour, which is limited. Not enough slaves to go around, especially for anything other than cotton. Plenty of Mexicans willing to work for subsistence wages, though.

Your arguments, if we analyze them, are somewhat contradictory.

1) You argue that cotton is so profitable that all slave labor was being sucked into cotton production, which would prevent any other slave-based agriculture from developing in Mexico.

2) You argue that the supply of slave labor is so limited that slave-based agriculture couldn't develop in Mexico, and that they would use Mexican peon labor instead.

Yet, elsewhere, you argue that...

And incidentally, the 1840s were when the decline of slavery in Virginia was reversed - in that decade, and afterward, the number of slaves in Virginia rose both in terms of absolute numbers and in terms of a percentage of the overall population.

If slaves were in such short supply in the cotton states, it does not seem likely that in the Upper South where there the cotton boom was not dominant, the slave population would be actually increasing. This would indicate that there was in fact a surplus supply of slave labor available to supply the slaves, at least initially, needed by development in Mexico. It can't be both ways at once. Either there was a surplus, or there wasn't.

As for your arguments that cotton was so profitable that it would prevent the development of industries like coffee, sugar, rice, or cacao in Mexico, and that the Mississippi Delta region was undeveloped and was some of the best cotton land around, I would respond by pointing out that planters in the Mississippi Delta region primarily grew sugar cane and rice. If the land was so suitable for cotton, and if cotton was so much more profitable than these other crops, that begs the question as to why the Delta planters were still growing rice and sugar instead of cotton. It also demonstrates that if a different crop can be more profitable than cotton in a different region, then Southern entrepreneurs of this period would likely grow it using slave labor.

You ignore the other factor which I mentioned...the extreme prejudice which Southerners of the time are going to have against Mexican peon labor. Will some of them use it? Yes. Will that prevent slave labor from being preferred, and prevent the supply of slaves in the cotton states from being impacted, by the movement of slaves to Mexico? No.

And incidentally, the big problem in most of Mexico is land ownership. Outside of the northern tier of states, the decent land is already owned by the locals. And it's not going to be confiscated, either - if there's one thing slaveowners respect, it's property rights. The cost of bringing expensive slaves and buying large amounts of land will be a huge disincentive to setting up slave plantations in everywhere except the extreme northeast, and maybe the Yucatan...

There are ways around that. Raise taxes to the point where landowners will sell cheaply to avoid losing everything at the tax auction. It happened quite a lot in the post-Civil War South, and similar policies could well be applied in Mexico.

(if the guerrillas there can be suppressed... and they will be very nasty indeed.)

Oh, I have no doubt that guerillas are going to be a major problem, as indeed I indicate in the timeline.
 
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Also after doing some research, most of the water used for irrigating out west comes from aquifers deep under the Earth. I doubt the technology of the 1800s would be able to tap into this source of water and make the production of crops profitable.

That's true in some areas today. But that is in large part because the rivers in the region like the Salt and the Gila, and others...which, in the 1800s, had water in them all year round...were dammed in the 20th Century and diverted to serve the major cities. Prior to that, river water was used for irrigation.
 
"if slave escapes were such a minor problem that affected so few Southern slaveowners, and the problem of escapism was so easily controlled, one might wonder why would enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act have become such a vital issue for the South?"

I'd say:
1. Although only few slaves really escaped, the number of those who tried and were caught again (like the women and children you mentioned), or died while fleeing, was at least several times higher. Slaveowners don't like it if their slaves run away, esp. during harvest, even if they get 'em back later.
Or 2. It was more the principle.
 
The historical and economic analyses of slavery which I have consulted indicate otherwise.

Which sources would those be?

For one good one, try: "The Impending Crisis, 1848-1861" by David M. Potter. I can dig up others if you need them.

Without launching into a detailed analysis, I would simply state the obvious: if slave escapes were such a minor problem that affected so few Southern slaveowners, and the problem of escapism was so easily controlled, one might wonder why would enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act have become such a vital issue for the South?

Because they were paranoid on the issue, basically. Most Northern politicians argued for the enforcement of the Fugitive Slave Act, after all, barring a few extreme abolitionists. Lincoln argued for the enforcement of it. So did Seward.

The individual slaveowners who lost slaves certainly complained loudly about it, but the percentage of runaways was never anywhere near high enough to threaten the viability of slavery as an institution.

It was this issue, along with the issue of the right to take slaves into the territories, which almost every Southern State which made such declarations cited in their declarations of the reasons for secession in 1861. Obviously it was more of a problem than you are making out here.

It's true enough that the South was worried about it, but they were worried over plenty of other things which turned out not to be the case. Lincoln had said repeatedly that he had no power to abolish slavery in any existing state, but the South found the prospect of a president who had some reservations over slavery so disturbing that they seceded even before Lincoln was sworn in.

The declarations of secessions cite plenty of other concerns besides the two you list. Firstly and most importantly, the slaveowners wanted respect. They complained about fugitive slaves, certainly, but in the context of a broader dislike of the north being antislavery. From the South Carolina causes of secession:

"We affirm that these ends for which this Government was instituted have been defeated, and the Government itself has been made destructive of them by the action of the non-slaveholding States. Those States have assume the right of deciding upon the propriety of our domestic institutions; and have denied the rights of property established in fifteen of the States and recognized by the Constitution; they have denounced as sinful the institution of slavery; they have permitted open establishment among them of societies, whose avowed object is to disturb the peace and to eloign the property of the citizens of other States. They have encouraged and assisted thousands of our slaves to leave their homes; and those who remain, have been incited by emissaries, books and pictures to servile insurrection."

Fugitive slaves are in there, but there's much more than that: the denunciation of slavery as being seen as sinful, and also concern over slave insurrection. (Slave rebellion being another example of something which the South was paranoid about much more than it was actually a realistic prospect.)

And while your analysis of the slaves who escaped (young, unattached males within 200 kilometres of the border) may or may not be true...there were a number of highly publicized cases of slave women and their children escaping to the North (highly publicized, quite often, because they were caught in the North and returned under the Fugitive Slave Act)...

There were certainly a few cases who weren't young and unattached males, but the large majority were as I said.

it doesn't really answer the question of why the vast majority, even within that 200 kilometer area, did not even try.

Because they thought that they'd be caught, basically.

There is evidence (such as statements in the interviews with former slaves known as THE SLAVE NARRATIVES, for example) that a prime reason for this was that they knew that, even if they made it into the "free" states, they could be, and most likely would be, returned to slavery. This won't be the case in the ATL.

Slaves who made it into Canada couldn't be returned even in OTL. A maximum of 6000 slaves went that far between 1850 and 1860. So knowing that they wouldn't be returned wasn't the only reason the slaves didn't leave.

As I said in the timeline, this is a process which will occur gradually over a period of over 50 years. There won't be an instant flood of runaways across the border. But as time goes on, and as the slaves in the border States begin to realize that runaways aren't being returned, the floodgates will gradually open, and the population of slaves will begin to be affected.

And the USA is unable to stop them? I rather doubt that...

That's true...but that was, in large part, not due to the "economic and social context," but simply because most of the region had not been adequately explored and it's potential was not yet realized.

Just because cotton can be grown there in a mid to late twentieth century context has very little bearing on whether it would be profitable in a nineteenth century slave economic system. And more particularly whether it would be profitable in comparison to other uses for the slaves, and other cotton areas. The prime area for expansion of cotton plantation (apart from the Delta) is around southern Coahuila and northern Durango.

The fact is that there was quite a lot of internal improvements being made and funded in the South prior to the war. There was not much opposition in the South to internal improvements as such.

No... just opposition to being taxed to pay for it. And since any government improvements would have to come from taxes (not enough people in Arizona to pay for it themselves) it amounts to the same thing when asking whether there'd be irrigation projects in Arizona.

One factor which might mitigate against there being as much opposition to federal funding of improvements in the ATL is that they will be going into the Territories...which is land held in common by all of the States. It would likely be easier for the representatives of the various States to rally around that than there would be for support of internal improvements within an existing State.

Or they'd chose to block funding for it more or less entirely, as they ended up doing in the CS constitution.

It is not really valid to use the Confederate experience as a guide in this case. The C.S.A., when it's Constitution was written, also didn't have any western territories in need of development. All of its undeveloped land was within STATES, which were seen as responsible for their own internal improvements.

The CSA expected to acquire New Mexico territory, at least.

The United States in the ATL after the conquest of Mexico finds itself with a huge amount of undeveloped western territory, and the way it proceeds will also likely be different.

They'll have to persuade a bunch of people to pay for taxes for (as they see it) no benefit to themselves. A transcontinental railroad is one thing; government sponsorship of irrigation projects quite another.

Your arguments, if we analyze them, are somewhat contradictory.

1) You argue that cotton is so profitable that all slave labor was being sucked into cotton production, which would prevent any other slave-based agriculture from developing in Mexico.

2) You argue that the supply of slave labor is so limited that slave-based agriculture couldn't develop in Mexico, and that they would use Mexican peon labor instead.

Available slave labour, i.e. that which can be bid on and moved.

Yet, elsewhere, you argue that...

If slaves were in such short supply in the cotton states, it does not seem likely that in the Upper South where there the cotton boom was not dominant, the slave population would be actually increasing. This would indicate that there was in fact a surplus supply of slave labor available to supply the slaves, at least initially, needed by development in Mexico. It can't be both ways at once. Either there was a surplus, or there wasn't.

No contradiction involved, just a matter of how many slaves were being sold. In Virginia, Maryland and Delaware up to 1840 or so, it was enough that it outpaced the rate of natural increase of slaves in those states. Post 1840 (well, between the 1840 and 1850 censuses, anyway), the rate of migration of slaves out of Virginia was less than the rate of natural increase of slaves in that state, hence the number of slaves started to rise again.

This does nothing to change the fact that whenever slaves were sold, cotton planters won most of the bids. Cotton sucked slave labour out of urban industry quite handily (check out the history of the Tredegar Iron Works, for instance), and it sucked out a lot of the growth in tobacco too.

As for your arguments that cotton was so profitable that it would prevent the development of industries like coffee, sugar, rice, or cacao in Mexico,

It wouldn't prevent the development of those industries; it would prevent the development of slave agriculture using them, when local peasant labour was available and cheap enough to get started with. (Until cotton prices crashed, as I also said upthread.)

and that the Mississippi Delta region was undeveloped and was some of the best cotton land around, I would respond by pointing out that planters in the Mississippi Delta region primarily grew sugar cane and rice. If the land was so suitable for cotton,

The parts of the Delta which grew cotton and those which grew sugar and rice weren't quite the same. The parts which were more suitable for cotton were somewhat drier, and needed the construction of levees before they could be farmed. (Which started in the 1850s in OTL, but really got going after the ACW.)

and if cotton was so much more profitable than these other crops, that begs the question as to why the Delta planters were still growing rice and sugar instead of cotton.

Because with the land and microclimate they had available, they couldn't grow cotton in those areas at that time.

It also demonstrates that if a different crop can be more profitable than cotton in a different region, then Southern entrepreneurs of this period would likely grow it using slave labor.

I wouldn't dispute for a moment that planters would switch between crops if another turned out to be more profitable. The cotton boom itself was a prime example of that. (Cotton being a minor crop at the time of the American Revolutionary Wars, with tobacco, indigo and rice major ones. Indigo was just about gone by the ACW, and rice was in severe decline.)

But when people are getting into bidding contests for slave labour, it's the crop which generates the highest overall rate of return which will get most of the slaves. And during the period in question, that crop was cotton, cotton and more cotton. Pretty much anyone who could grow cotton did. (Sugar and rice were grown when the land was either too wet or too hot, and tobacco when the land was too cool or too dry, or both.)

You ignore the other factor which I mentioned...the extreme prejudice which Southerners of the time are going to have against Mexican peon labor.

I don't ignore it, it's just that it's a minor matter when compared to the problem of actually getting slaves. As I said, there are some areas of Mexico which will see a huge boom with slave cotton agriculture - Durango, Coahuila and Neuvo Leon, basically. For the rest... It's use peasants or have no workers, basically.

Will some of them use it? Yes. Will that prevent slave labor from being preferred, and prevent the supply of slaves in the cotton states from being impacted, by the movement of slaves to Mexico? No.

As I said, it's not that Southerners wouldn't prefer slave labour given a choice, it's just that they won't be able to get enough slaves. The Southerners who were mining in New Mexico wouldn't have minded a few slaves either, and it was legal, but that's not where the slaves ended up.

There are ways around that. Raise taxes to the point where landowners will sell cheaply to avoid losing everything at the tax auction. It happened quite a lot in the post-Civil War South, and similar policies could well be applied in Mexico.

These are people for whom property rights are damn near sacred. That was why they got so worked up over slavery in the first place. Those sort of screwy manouevres aren't going to cut it. Especially since the big landowners are going to be the people the downsized-USA is going to have to keep onside if it's going to hold down Mexico.
 
To Jared, htgriffin, and others of like mind.

I rarely post on threads relating to the slavery issue or the causes of the Civil War anymore, nor engage in debate with the neo-abolitionists (neo-abolitionism, for those who are not familiar with the term, being a historical and political philosophy that holds that that the only issue involved in the Civil War was slavery, and by extension, that the South was irredemably evil and would never have abolished slavery on it's own without being forced to do so by the North) on this board regarding said issues, for the simple reason that I am here to enjoy myself and not to convince anyone that my own view of this period of history is the only correct one. I find myself being drawn into such a debate now, and I am afraid I am going to have to opt out.

I welcome constructive criticism (defined as criticism and suggestions intended to assist me in writing a better timeline based on the point of departure I have selected) of the timeline. However, if you don't consider the timeline plausible, or can't accept that the events listed are at least possible, and have no constructive criticisms or suggestions to offer, then I suggest that you don't read it and move on to another thread.

Personally, I don't think Decades of Darkness, for example, is plausible either, and I could spend lots of time picking it apart. But the way I deal with my feelings about that is by not reading it. I don't expend large amounts of time and energy dumping all over it in order to prove that I am right and the author is wrong.

Therefore, if you wish to continue dumping, by all means do so. However, you will probably find it boring, as I won't reply. As I said, I am here to enjoy myself, and that is what I intend to do. Have a nice day. :)
 
Hrm... touchy.

That strikes me as a rather unhealthy choice for the timeline. Not for you of course, you will get much more out of it the less time you spend arguing, but the best timelines thrive on competing viewpoints (well, at least on those rare occasions when both sides are citing their sources :)).

Moving on. I like the looks of the timeline and will keep up with the updates. More of your usual quality work. Cheers.
 
As for your arguments that cotton was so profitable that it would prevent the development of industries like coffee, sugar, rice, or cacao in Mexico, and that the Mississippi Delta region was undeveloped and was some of the best cotton land around, I would respond by pointing out that planters in the Mississippi Delta region primarily grew sugar cane and rice. If the land was so suitable for cotton, and if cotton was so much more profitable than these other crops, that begs the question as to why the Delta planters were still growing rice and sugar instead of cotton. It also demonstrates that if a different crop can be more profitable than cotton in a different region, then Southern entrepreneurs of this period would likely grow it using slave labor.

This was because is was mostly swampland until after the 1860s, which is very congenial to the production of both rice and sugar cane which need lots of water.

After the land was drained, the fertile soil was very amenable to growing cotton. It's just that you can't grow cotton in a swamp, but you can grow rice and sugar.
 
Hrm... touchy.
Not really. I am simply nipping some thread-hijackers in the bud before they have a chance to get started. I've seen it happen in all too many cases before.

That strikes me as a rather unhealthy choice for the timeline. Not for you of course, you will get much more out of it the less time you spend arguing, but the best timelines thrive on competing viewpoints (well, at least on those rare occasions when both sides are citing their sources :)).

I agree with that, in general. However, there is a difference between constructive and destructive criticism. I welcome, as I said, constructive criticism. It does help get the creative juices flowing and I have already incorporated some changes into the timeline based on the criticisms given to the first version of it, and I certainly don't want to stifle anyone from giving their opinions. However, I have sparred with Jared and htgriffin and others of their ilk before, however, and I don't feel they are really interested in offering constructive criticism. Indeed, there is little evidence so far that they have even read the timeline...they seem rather to be responding to my posts made in response to others who have read the timeline.

Moving on. I like the looks of the timeline and will keep up with the updates. More of your usual quality work. Cheers.

Thank you.
 
Hrm... touchy.

That strikes me as a rather unhealthy choice for the timeline. Not for you of course, you will get much more out of it the less time you spend arguing, but the best timelines thrive on competing viewpoints (well, at least on those rare occasions when both sides are citing their sources :)).

Moving on. I like the looks of the timeline and will keep up with the updates. More of your usual quality work. Cheers.

He has every right to be. Everytime any ATL of the War Between the States come up it always usually degrades into a debate over slavery and likely future. However, this thread does bring to light a lasting problem, which I don't think was prevalent on the old board, but the tendency more for debate than alternative history. On the other hand there is a portion of the board dedicated to Timelines, which one can post a ATL complete and without much debate.

Neo-abolitionism, hmm. Going to have to remember that one.

Robert, I should just email you directly, but what is your opinion of William Davis's Look Way! - A History of the Confederate States of America. If you've read it at all. I'm reading it right now and am finding it very interesting.
 
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