WI Northern Nullification is Challenged...1843

Hi There!

I have to admit I haven't been following this thread that closely but I can't help feeling that there wouldn't be a Canada in this timeline. Unless there's been a massive amount of bad feeling between the UK and the FSA, then there's no driving psychological impetus to unification.

London would still probably want it, but without the example of the Civil War in the 1860s, I think the representatives of the province of Canada would find it pretty hard to convince the the Maritimers to join them. Even with pressure from London OTL, PEI and British Columbia took about four years to decide to join and Newfoundland didn't bother until 1949. The FSA just doesn't seem to be enough of a threat to British North America.

The reasons for the creation of the Canadian federation are given by Wikipedia (which agrees with other sources I have seen) as follows...

Wikipedia said:
The move towards uniting the British North American provinces and territories began out of a number of concerns, one was English Canadian nationalism which sought to unite the lands into one country. Concerns over American expansion westward which could endanger the British colonies also helped foster a desire to formally unify the colonies. On a political level, the desire for the expansion of responsible government and elimination of the legislative union of Upper and Lower Canada, and their replacement with provincial legislatures in a federation. This last point was especially pushed by the liberal Reform movement of Upper Canada and the French-Canadian rouges in Lower Canada who favoured a decentralized union in comparison to the Upper Canadian Conservative party and to some degree the French-Canadian bleus which favoured a centralized union.

All of these pressures still exist in the ATL.

1) Nothing in the timeline would change the English nationalism which was a prime impetus behind unification efforts in Canada.

2) Even though the F.S.A. may be somewhat less powerful than the OTL U.S.A. was during this period, it still heavily outweighs Canada in population and industrial might, and thus would prove a dangerous adversary should it decide that Canada looks ripe for the taking. So the threat is still there, albeit to a lesser degree, but still a large threat.

3) The Act of Union of 1840, which forcibly united the French-speakers with the English-speakers in a single province, with the English speakers having the upper hand politically and seeking to forcibly assimilate the French speaking population, was passed before the POD of the timeline, so it still is there and creating impetus for a new federation in Canada.

So, given the fact that ALL of the factors which lead to the passage of the 1867 British North America Act, and the creation of the Canadian federation, are still there, why would Canada NOT form? It just doesn't make sense that it would not.

On another topic: Assuming *Canada does form, how would the free trade discussions with the FSA go. They didn't succeed OTL, but the FSA is much smaller and might find tarrifless access to Canadian resources very appealing. Of course, this would also mitigate agains the formation of a strong East-West federation in *Canada if there is no National Policy put in place. On the other hand, a *Canada with a National Policy should be much more able to compete successfully in the smaller Markets of the FSA. Interesting either way

David

Given that the anti-free-trade Whigs (and later Republicans) are the most powerful party in the F.S.A., my guess is that they still fail, as in OTL. Basically the same group of people who, in OTL, were in control of the U.S.A. after the Civil War, are in control of the F.S.A. in the ATL.
 
Hey Rob, I was wondering can we get a quick list on the Presidents on the USA and FSa if you would be so kind?

Here you go.

Presidents of the Federated States of America, 1844 to 1880.

Daniel Webster (Whig), 1844-1849
Lewis Cass (Democrat), 1849-1857
Abraham Lincoln (Whig), 1857-1861
Levi Boone (American Republican/Know Nothing), 1861-1869
William Magear Tweed (Democrat), 1869-1877
J. Neely Johnson (Republican), 1877-1880 (died in office)
John Sherman (Republican), 1880-1881
Thomas Reed Cobb (Democrat), 1881-?

Presidents of the United States of America, 1841-1880

William Henry Harrison (Whig), 1841-1843 (Impeached and removed from office)
John Tyler (Democrat), 1843-1845
James Knox Polk (Democrat), 1845-1849 (died in office)
Thomas Hart Benton (Democrat), 1849-1853
Jefferson Finis Davis (Democrat), 1853-1861
Robert Toombs (Whig), 1861-1865
Robert Mercer Taliaferro Hunter (Democrat), 1865-1873
Henry Watkins Allen (Whig), 1873-1881
James Black Groome (Democrat), 1881-?

Presidents of the Republic of Deseret
(There are no political parties in Deseret)

Brigham Young, 1856-1877
John Taylor, 1877-1887
 
1852--The United States Congress passes the “Act to Clarify the Status of Persons Not Holding Citizenship.” In accordance with the Comonfort decision, a United States Citizen is defined by the Act as any free person of pure European ancestry, or of mixed European and Indian ancestry, provided said person has no more than 1/8 Indian blood.

The Act creates a new class of United States Nationals, who are defined by the act as any free, non-citizen person who is a permanent resident of the United States or it's Territories or possessions, and who is under the jurisdiction of the United States and owes no allegiance to any foreign government. The chief difference between a United States National and a United States Citizen is that United States Nationals have no voting rights in national elections, and cannot serve in any elected Federal office. United States Nationals, however, are deemed to be entitled to equal protection under Federal law, and can serve on federal juries. However, the protection they enjoy under the laws of the individual States is up to the States themselves, so long as it does not conflict with any right given under Federal law (they may be denied the right to serve on juries in State Courts, for example). They can also vote and serve in elected offices at the State level, provided that the State in which they reside chooses to allow it.

The Castizos and Mestizos, as well as Indians and free blacks, will be granted status as United States Nationals under the Act. Slaves, including both black slaves and the Amerindian slaves held by many Hispanic landowners especially in New Mexico Territory, are excluded from status as United States Nationals and have, essentially, no protection under national law (although some States, as in OTL, will keep laws on the books to control abuse of slaves by their masters).

Sorry to bring this old bird back up again Robert, But after rereading this part about the Federal system of the definiton of Races, and that free Blacks are considered status of US Nationals...But I was wondering what effect would this declaration have on the status of Prominent OTL Free Blacks who were born before the POD such as Fredrick Douglass, Hiraim Rhodes Revels, Blanche Kelso Bruce, John Willis Menard, Harriet Tubman, Jefferson F. Long, Joseph H. Rainey and others?
 
Sorry to bring this old bird back up again Robert, But after rereading this part about the Federal system of the definiton of Races, and that free Blacks are considered status of US Nationals...But I was wondering what effect would this declaration have on the status of Prominent OTL Free Blacks who were born before the POD such as Fredrick Douglass, Hiraim Rhodes Revels, Blanche Kelso Bruce, John Willis Menard, Harriet Tubman, Jefferson F. Long, Joseph H. Rainey and others?

Any thoughts on the subject?
 
Sorry to bring this old bird back up again Robert, But after rereading this part about the Federal system of the definiton of Races, and that free Blacks are considered status of US Nationals...But I was wondering what effect would this declaration have on the status of Prominent OTL Free Blacks who were born before the POD such as Fredrick Douglass, Hiraim Rhodes Revels, Blanche Kelso Bruce, John Willis Menard, Harriet Tubman, Jefferson F. Long, Joseph H. Rainey and others?

Basically the people who were born free or were freed after birth, like Revels, Bruce, and Rainey, would gains some new rights and protections under the new law, but would not be able to rise to political power as in OTL, because the circumstances which allowed that (Reconstruction) won't exist in the ATL. In general, their opportunities for advancement in the USA will be nearly as limited as in OTL.

People who were slaves in OTL won't see their situation affected at all by the new legislation (Douglas, Tubman, Long). They will continue to be slaves, with essentially no protection under the law.

People who were born in the North would probably remain in the North (Menard).

Interestingly, if Douglass and Tubman escape from slavery as in OTL, they may well find themselves shipped off to Liberia or Freedonia in the ATL, as the attitudes of the F.S.A. toward escaped slaves are that, while the F.S.A. won't return them, they don't want them, either, especially not in large numbers. Most likely native born blacks like Menard would be allowed to stay, but newcomers probably won't.
 
Basically the people who were born free or were freed after birth, like Revels, Bruce, and Rainey, would gains some new rights and protections under the new law, but would not be able to rise to political power as in OTL, because the circumstances which allowed that (Reconstruction) won't exist in the ATL. In general, their opportunities for advancement in the USA will be nearly as limited as in OTL.

People who were slaves in OTL won't see their situation affected at all by the new legislation (Douglas, Tubman, Long). They will continue to be slaves, with essentially no protection under the law.

People who were born in the North would probably remain in the North (Menard).

Interestingly, if Douglass and Tubman escape from slavery as in OTL, they may well find themselves shipped off to Liberia or Freedonia in the ATL, as the attitudes of the F.S.A. toward escaped slaves are that, while the F.S.A. won't return them, they don't want them, either, especially not in large numbers. Most likely native born blacks like Menard would be allowed to stay, but newcomers probably won't.


So If Douglass and Tubman make it to Liberia or Freedonia, they could be very essential into making the Government of the Territories much more functioning than OTL LIberia. Who know's they could be the first black governors?
 
Well if Douglass is sent to Liberia, it will most likely have a better government, and subsequent regard, for its citizens than OTL Liberia.

Tubman on the other hand may not make a footnote in this TL's history if sent to Africa. I could be wrong in this, but I think with out her work on the Underground Railroad in NA, she may not find a significant place for herself in Liberia.
 
Well if Douglass is sent to Liberia, it will most likely have a better government, and subsequent regard, for its citizens than OTL Liberia.

Tubman on the other hand may not make a footnote in this TL's history if sent to Africa. I could be wrong in this, but I think with out her work on the Underground Railroad in NA, she may not find a significant place for herself in Liberia.

All true, she may however, be a major voice across the pond, possibly talking about an earlier Woman's suffrage movement aswell.
 
I just reread this timeline, and I think its a shame it never got properly continued on...So Rob, any chase of using your old thread necromancy powers to ressurect this glorious timeline?
 
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