WI: northern 'england' remains brythonic?

[piratedude]

As it says on the tin, what if northern England, meaning the area north of the humber river, wasn't successfully conquered by Anglo-saxons?

Would they be able to unify into a single kingdom under some one like Urien of Rheged (circa 590), or would they go through cycles of unification and division like their welsh cousins?

And how might the viking raids and later invasions (if they aren't completely butterflied) affect them?

 

[DanMcCollum]

As it says on the tin, what if northern England, meaning the area north of the humber river, wasn't successfully conquered by Anglo-saxons?

Would they be able to unify into a single kingdom under some one like Urien of Rheged (circa 590), or would they go through cycles of unification and division like their welsh cousins?

And how might the viking raids and later invasions (if they aren't completely butterflied) affect them?

An interesting question - and one I've played with a bit in my own timeline. As to whether or not they would unify or not
.. well, it's hard to say. Certainly, the land itself favors unification (or at least makes it easier to attain) than places like Wales. However, there are political considerations too; and it's likely that Dal Riada and the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms to the South would be more than happy to play the different Cumberland warlords and nobles against one another. Of course, Beria and Deiria remained United following the consolidation of Northumbria, so political machinations don't mean a United Cumberland isn't possible, or even unlikely.

So, I suppose the question is: how big of a Cumberland are we talking about? Are we looking at a strong Kingdom which United all of the Brythonic, non-Pictish, speakers as far north as OTL Edinburgh? Does this Kingdom reverse history and take the basic form of a Brythonic Northumberland?

If these are true, than Cumberland is going to be a very powerful and Rich Kingdom in it's own right. Depending on political stability as well as it's policies, we could certainly see it becoming a major cultural center in the region and an exporter of the OTL Gaelic mission.

An interesting development might come if it's conquered by the Norse and we see a Norse-Cumbric culture developing.

 

[piratedude]

I suppose the question is: how big of a Cumberland are we talking about? Are we looking at a strong Kingdom which United all of the Brythonic, non-Pictish, speakers as far north as OTL Edinburgh? Does this Kingdom reverse history and take the basic form of a Brythonic Northumberland?

That option is generally the one i favor, because i think it produces the most interesting divergences.

 

[Ivan Lupo]

Strathclyde was a Brythonic kingdom in the north that survived up until the Scots conquered it in the 11th century. It was allied with Scotland and Dublin going into the Battle of Brunanburh against King Æthelstan, in order to defeat increasing Anglo-Saxon dominance in the north. If Æthelstan is defeated and killed at Brunanburh, perhaps Strathclyde can take a good chunk of Northumbria for itself and survive as a regional, united Brythonic kingdom for several more centuries.

 

[DanMcCollum]

Strathclyde was a Brythonic kingdom in the north that survived up until the Scots conquered it in the 11th century. It was allied with Scotland and Dublin going into the Battle of Brunanburh against King Æthelstan, in order to defeat increasing Anglo-Saxon dominance in the north. If Æthelstan is defeated and killed at Brunanburh, perhaps Strathclyde can take a good chunk of Northumbria for itself and survive as a regional, united Brythonic kingdom for several more centuries.

Probably a bit late. By that time Strathclyde was a vassal the the Alba crown and would soon be subsumed in coming years.

I think the best timeframe would actually be in the 6th and 7th centuries. If you can stop the the Northumbrian kingdoms from forming and uniting, then the Old North is likely to stay Brythonic in language and character and gives them the chance to unite. (You can also have Northumbria defeated in it's early years, as the kingdom showed some distinct Cumbrian influences and there was likely still a large about of Brythonic speakers there at the time)

 

[The Professor]

I don't think you can prevent some Angle settlement of the Northeast coast. It's too convenient for them, much like it would be for the Vikings later.
Maybe what you could do is have it mirror the Norman invasion in that the Angles take charge but don't completely subsume the language and culture so that a modified version of it surfaces later.
Alternatively balance the powers in the region between Scots and Cumbrics in the west, and Picts and Angles in the East; or even just Cumbrics, Scots, and Angles (the Picts absorbed by the latter two).

 

[DanMcCollum]

I don't think you can prevent some Angle settlement of the Northeast coast. It's too convenient for them, much like it would be for the Vikings later.
Maybe what you could do is have it mirror the Norman invasion in that the Angles take charge but don't completely subsume the language and culture so that a modified version of it surfaces later.
Alternatively balance the powers in the region between Scots and Cumbrics in the west, and Picts and Angles in the East; or even just Cumbrics, Scots, and Angles (the Picts absorbed by the latter two).

I agree that there's no way to prevent at least some Angle enclaves in the Northeast - there's at least some evidence that they may have been present since late Roman times of shortly thereafter.

But there's nothing to be said that that enclaves end up growing into the twin kingdoms of Bernica and Deria. Angle control in the region seems to have been somewhat shaky at best in the beginning (and the Angles and their royal houses also seem to have done more to integrate their Cumbrian subjects than was common further to the South.

So although you probably can't prevent the original settlement, it's well within the realm of possibility for the Angle settlements to come under the political domination of the Cumbrians. Should this happen, then you will likely see the Angles eventually assimilate with their Cumbrian neighbors (which on a sidenote would be interesting. You might see the Cumbrian language develop with influence from the Angels and later Norse settlers. So you'd have a Brythonic language, but likely with a fair bit of West and North Germanic loanwords. I have no clue what this would sound or look like, but damn it would be cool )

 

[GauchoBadger]

A Brythonic *Yorkshire, or even just a Brythonic *Lancashire to keep things more plausible, could likely also lead to Cheshire staying Brythonic to provide some sort of continuity between the Welsh and the Cumbrians.

 

[piratedude]

You might see the Cumbrian language develop with influence from the Angels and later Norse settlers. So you'd have a Brythonic language, but likely with a fair bit of West and North Germanic loanwords. I have no clue what this would sound or look like, but damn it would be cool

Well, while we can look at how English has impacted Welsh to get an idea of how that would impact a 'Middle Cumbric', i don't know if any norse language has directly affected a brythonic one so we'd have to infer from how norse affected Irish and Scottish Gaelic.

 

[piratedude]

A Brythonic *Yorkshire, or even just a Brythonic *Lancashire to keep things more plausible, could likely also lead to Cheshire staying Brythonic to provide some sort of continuity between the Welsh and the Cumbrians.

That has interesting implications geopolitically, at least in my mind. It would mean that Mercia would have a more or less continuous 'front' without a favorable geographic boundry. Though to be honest a more likely situation is that area would be contested and go back and forth depending on whose the more powerful at the moment, at least until the viking come along and disrupt the balance of things.

 

[The Professor]

A Brythonic *Yorkshire, or even just a Brythonic *Lancashire to keep things more plausible, could likely also lead to Cheshire staying Brythonic to provide some sort of continuity between the Welsh and the Cumbrians.

A lot of Welsh culture come via Cumbria - it's why Welsh is Cymraeg not Brythoneg, and the stories are of the Old North (Hen Ogledd) not the "New North" of Gwynnedd etc.
So a continuation of at least the western Old North could see a contrast between the Cumbrian north and the South Welsh (whatever name they end up with).

That has interesting implications geopolitically, at least in my mind. It would mean that Mercia would have a more or less continuous 'front' without a favorable geographic boundry. Though to be honest a more likely situation is that area would be contested and go back and forth depending on whose the more powerful at the moment, at least until the viking come along and disrupt the balance of things.

If we assume Mercia still forms as OTL its dominance over both Angles and Saxons could be assured. Mercia was the mixing pot for the Angles south of the Humber and the Saxons of the South.
If Mercia doesn't then it forms the battleground for the Saxon, Angle, and Briton kingdoms. Maybe oddball Kent (with its mix of Frankish and Saxon customs, and Anglian dialect) gets favoured by the Franks to dominate. Maybe Middlesex becomes the dominant region which would be ironic.

 

[piratedude]

If we assume Mercia still forms as OTL its dominance over both Angles and Saxons could be assured. Mercia was the mixing pot for the Angles south of the Humber and the Saxons of the South.

Well im assuming a POD of Urien of Rheged not being assassinated during the siege of ynys medcaut(aka lindisfarne), and so he and his little coalition is able to crush Bernicia before it can get off the ground. Since that apparently happened during the reign of Ida it probably took place some time in the mid 550s. Im pretty sure that Mercia has established itself by then.

Correction: it happened in the reign of one of Ida's sons, Theodric, pushing the date forward to 572-579.

 

[piratedude]

So here's a beginning for atimeline that i think sounds likely, but I'd like your opinion

579: Urien of Rheged, Rhydderch of Ystrad Clud, and Gwallog of Elmet are invited by Morgant of Bryneich to form a coalition to push back the Angles that have been gobbling up his kingdom.

580‐1: the campaign is proving successful, more successful than any of them expected, the angles have been driven from Bamburgh to their last fortess on ynys medcaut and much of it is due to the prowess and tactical mind of Urien who has gained much prestige. Worried and envious, Morgant pays one of his men to assassinate Urien.

Now for the POD: the man Morcant paid decides to do a bit of double dipping (unscrupulous men will always be unscrupulous) and rats out his employer for some extra gold. Urien waits until the island falls to his forces before exposing Morgant's treachery. Morgant's men by this point are sick of his poor leadership and depose him, swearing to Urien who is clearly the better king.

The rest of Ida's kin flee to Deira as the Welsh conqueror their fledgling kingdom, and Urien is more or less the undisputed overlord of the north, solidified with arranging a marriage between his daughter Morfydd and Rhydderch.

585: Urien dies on campaign in Diera, and his son Owein succedes him, though he has to deal with the king of gododdin trying to invade him while he's weak.

588: Owein, with help from his brother in law, is able to turn the tables and Goddodin is split up between Ystrad Clud and Rheged. Owein takes the king of Goddodin's daughter, Teneu, for a wife who gives him a son kentigern (who OTL is more commonly known as St.Mungo)

593: Owein resumes his father's campaign against Diera, while his in law raids the scoti of Dal Riata

 

[altwere]

Interesting start.

 

[DanMcCollum]

Yeah, i actually really like this! If you can get two or even three generations of solid leadership, you'll probably create this sense of Cumbria being a United entity. Even if the Kingdom eventually fragments during a period of weak leadership, this should be enough to make sure that it eventually unites again in a generation or two.

As long as the kingdom can maintain it's Southern border, and maybe extend it's power a bit north, you'll have a strong political entity by the time of the Vikings arrival (and, presumably, it's conquest by then).

Interesting!

 

[piratedude]

595: Diera is defeated at the battle of Ebrauc, and the ruling family flees across the humber to the kingdom of Lindsey. The north is now securely in the hands of the Britons, though Pictish and Scottish raids will be an ongoing issue.

599: the more reliable historical records have Owein joining an Arthur in battle against the kingdoms Lindsey and Mercia which forced the angles submission to the Britons (but did not conquer them).
Later semi-historical accounts and legends have expanded on this and other accounts, claiming that Arthur was the High King of the Britons and Owein the greatest of his sub-kings.

612: Despite his warrior lifestyle, Owein dies peacefully at age 55, and his son Kentigern succeedes him without issue.

His mother Teneu was very devout and she raised her son to be likewise. Kentigern spends most of his reign helping to bring his subjects to the faith, and inviting missionaries from across the isles to help found not a few abbies in his realm. He is later remembered in the Triads as one of the Three saintly rulers of Britain.

 

[Cuchulainn]

Bonus points if the Columbian religious establishment (i hesitate to actually describe it as a Church) grows strong enough to resist the pressure & impositions of the Roman Church.

 

[DanMcCollum]

Bonus points if the Columbian religious establishment (i hesitate to actually describe it as a Church) grows strong enough to resist the pressure & impositions of the Roman Church.

Probably a bit difficult. I mean, one of the major issues was how to calculate Easter and no one was going to risk a major breach with Rome over that (despite the fact that they WOULD risk riots and some violence over it). Now, what I could see is a longer lived Celtic Rite existing within the British Isles which would have maintained the form of worship of the British and Irish Christians, even if they bowed to Rome over things like the date of Easter (and even the tonsure. Maybe. ). And, honestly, some of that could be dealt with by weakening the Frankish Empire and the imposition of the Gaulish Rite on much of Western Christianity.

 

[The Professor]

Bonus points if you don't use Modern Welsh orthography!

(It really bugs me when people spend a lot of effort getting the Northumbrian spellings and names right but then just dump in Modern Welsh for the Cumbrians etc)

 

[DanMcCollum]

Bonus points if you don't use Modern Welsh orthography!

(It really bugs me when people spend a lot of effort getting the Northumbrian spellings and names right but then just dump in Modern Welsh for the Cumbrians etc)

Ouch! Not all of us are linguists