WI North/South Split Early On

So I was looking at an ancient thread I started here in Before 1900 way back in 2009 concerning what would happen if all the states went independent in 1790. One of the issues brought up involved how the New England states would likely get together, the Southern states, etc., and that led to a separate comment on how the North would go more Federalist and the South more Democratic-Republican.

My question now, then, is if this would really be true. Supposing a Southern Country is formed anytime after the American Revolution, but not long after the Constitutional Convention, would it necessarily develop in the way it did OTL? Many early Southerners were Federalists themselves, including John C. Calhoun who became the champion of 'Southern state's rights'. It seems to me that the path taken by the South in OTL, particularly one agitating for state's rights, is a product of a union with the North and the slavery issue. Would a country that is only Southern really develop this antipathy to centralized government when said government is not influenced by northern agitation?

Feel free to postulate on how the Northern country would develop politically as well!
 

jahenders

Banned
So I was looking at an ancient thread I started here in Before 1900 way back in 2009 concerning what would happen if all the states went independent in 1790. One of the issues brought up involved how the New England states would likely get together, the Southern states, etc., and that led to a separate comment on how the North would go more Federalist and the South more Democratic-Republican.

My question now, then, is if this would really be true. Supposing a Southern Country is formed anytime after the American Revolution, but not long after the Constitutional Convention, would it necessarily develop in the way it did OTL? Many early Southerners were Federalists themselves, including John C. Calhoun who became the champion of 'Southern state's rights'. It seems to me that the path taken by the South in OTL, particularly one agitating for state's rights, is a product of a union with the North and the slavery issue. Would a country that is only Southern really develop this antipathy to centralized government when said government is not influenced by northern agitation?

Feel free to postulate on how the Northern country would develop politically as well!

You raise a good point -- the flavor and degree of the "states' rights" (vs federalism) view is definitely based on a larger context and changing that context changes the viewpoint.

If, as you postulate, the North and South became separate countries from the beginning the mathematics of governance is changed. You might also have different key decision makers. A lot depends on what states are on each side.

North: Assuming VA goes with the South (not a given), then the North may not have the Virginia Plan in the constitutional convention and might go with a different separation of powers and a different balance of small v. large states.

South: The South will probably go with variations of the VA plan, even though there's a bit less disparity between small and large (you don't have RI and DE).

Regardless of what constitutions they create, a lot will come down to how the first few governments function. There were a lot of things that didn't really manifest themselves until in practice. For example, the Supreme Court wasn't seen as that powerful until it exercised that power and was unchallenged.
 
South: The South will probably go with variations of the VA plan, even though there's a bit less disparity between small and large (you don't have RI and DE).

No Rhode Island and New Hampshire, sure, but Delaware and Maryland could certainly end up in the South if Virginia does.

The 1790 census actually marks Delaware as the smallest state in the Union, followed quite closely by Georgia.

And, of course, if you only count whites and not slaves (which is possible in a country of only slave states, the ideology of slaves not being people not needing to be balanced by the need to inflate populations at all costs), then South Carolina also comes in as "smaller than New Hampshire". In fact, I'd argue that such a state would be even more concerned about maintaining the rights of small states, because in the South alone, there's only one elephant in the room, while the full 13 colonies had Pennsylvania, New York, and Massachusetts to balance out Virginia.
 

B-29_Bomber

Banned
No Rhode Island and New Hampshire, sure, but Delaware and Maryland could certainly end up in the South if Virginia does.

The 1790 census actually marks Delaware as the smallest state in the Union, followed quite closely by Georgia.

And, of course, if you only count whites and not slaves (which is possible in a country of only slave states, the ideology of slaves not being people not needing to be balanced by the need to inflate populations at all costs), then South Carolina also comes in as "smaller than New Hampshire". In fact, I'd argue that such a state would be even more concerned about maintaining the rights of small states, because in the South alone, there's only one elephant in the room, while the full 13 colonies had Pennsylvania, New York, and Massachusetts to balance out Virginia.

That's not a guarantee.
 

jahenders

Banned
No Rhode Island and New Hampshire, sure, but Delaware and Maryland could certainly end up in the South if Virginia does.

The 1790 census actually marks Delaware as the smallest state in the Union, followed quite closely by Georgia.

And, of course, if you only count whites and not slaves (which is possible in a country of only slave states, the ideology of slaves not being people not needing to be balanced by the need to inflate populations at all costs), then South Carolina also comes in as "smaller than New Hampshire". In fact, I'd argue that such a state would be even more concerned about maintaining the rights of small states, because in the South alone, there's only one elephant in the room, while the full 13 colonies had Pennsylvania, New York, and Massachusetts to balance out Virginia.

Good point in that the 3/5 math would certainly change, probably in both North and South.
 
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