WI: North Africa Without Islam

I have made a thread on the linguistic side of it - the consensus seems that the main languages may be a 'Maghrebian Romance' and Berbers language(s), with some Greek and such. Coptic thriving more in Egypt probably.

Albeit maybe Cannabis would face a different fate too... Maybe more accepted, I dunno...
 
The year may change, other details too, but I still think it would happen. Western Europe and the Middle East are too different from each other.

Before 650? Not really.
You had a prosperous trade between East and West, good religious ties (with the pope being in byzantine hands), the romance civilisation (especially in Mediterranea, as Italy, Spain or Africa) was very close to Byzantine one...

The divide of East and West christianity is mainly due to the rise of Islam, that in conquering North Africa, severed many trading and cultural ties, forcing the Latin cultures to rely more on the northern european centers (Frisia, Germany, Rhine) to maintain their power.

You could argue that these northern centers were already flourishing before the Islamic invasions, but they participated in a transcontinental trade and not in a western/northern one.

So, yes, i think that without a Muslim North Africa, you won't have neither a hiatus on West/East relations, as Byzance could have the possibility to keep the Pope on THEIR domination, nor the Carolingian-wank that stregthened this rupture.

It's more or less what Pirenne argued, and even if the rupture wasn't total nor immediate, I think his theory is totally valable.
 
If Islam influenced or strengthened certain strains of Orthodoxy (thinking of Iconoclasm here) then you have remove that from the equation. I wonder if Persian would further Christianize (the Iraq part).
 
The Latin-Greek split is still going to exist.

That split existed for the better part of a millennium before it became a schism. A linguistic divide may never become anything like it did OTL, especially with the vastly different situation throughout the Mediterranean.
 
It's an interesting scenario.

Would the Berbers in the Sahara convert to Christianity? If so, would this take long than what it took for them to convert to Islam? How does their tribal sctructure fit in an organized religion where hierarchy is important? Might an heretic Christian sect arrise in the North African desert?

And, would trade from Subsaharan Africa to the Magreb develop in this scenario? Would we still see carabans carrying gold and salt across the desert? And what about slave trade?
 
Without Islam, I wonder if the ERE would actually be able to keep ahold of Egypt and Syria. One thing that Islam did that was good for the Empire was it rid Byzantium of all the majority-heretic provinces. Egypt and Syria were full of Monophysites, who weren't especially pleased with the rest of the Empire's dislike of them.

I don't see how this is a good thing for the Empire.

Byzantium became far more conservative and intolerant without competing Christian dialogue and population/ethnic centers.
 
Would the Berbers in the Sahara convert to Christianity? If so, would this take long than what it took for them to convert to Islam? How does their tribal sctructure fit in an organized religion where hierarchy is important? Might an heretic Christian sect arrise in the North African desert?

Many Berber tribes already did so, since the Antiquity as the romano-berber of the coast that were massivly catholics. Eventually, the other tribes (jewish or polytheists) would be likely absorbed into chritstianization up to the X/XI century.

The Berber society was less tribal than clanic, so you have a "duty" of cohesion that allow mass conversion for the good of the people. If the Christian Berber manage to have a political dominance, the clanic structure would likely help.

Actually you HAD an heresy in North Africa, the Donatism. Even if it was badly crushed since the V century, you could have indeed a Neo-Donatism taking the place that kharidjism had OTL.

And, would trade from Subsaharan Africa to the Magreb develop in this scenario? Would we still see carabans carrying gold and salt across the desert? And what about slave trade?

The trade would be probably dominated by sub-saharian gold, critically for Latinity but also salt and probably slaves (mainly for north african, spanish and byzantine markets).

As this trade existed long before the islamisation of North Africa, most probably that it would continue.

For the slave trade, some could be interested (Visigoths, Byzantines), but I doubt Franks, Lombards, etc would be part of it : 1)It was less expansive to just take slavic slaves 2)Slavery was already being merged with free or semi-free peasantry.

Maybe that this process could take longer than OTL, but in 1000, I would say slavery would be over in western Latinity (and probably in Visigothic Spain too, maybe later).
 

arlindi193

Banned
Mostly North Africa will be Christians Mostly Catholic and Orthodox
and Language will Mostly speak Berber and Coptic
 
Really now? You got infos?

Not really...I think it comes, from two sources. One Arab scholar said Berbers of Tunisia always spoke "latin" (probably a romance language) in the XII, and when Normans invaded Tunisia, it seems that you had still this.

It wasn't a really widespread language, but if we can make a comparison with mozarabic people in Spain, you had the maintain of an Arabized Christianity (based many on Ghassanid memory/identification) up to quite late times.

XIII is a probable date of extinction for this "latin", but well...It's a possibility (really tiny though) for the really early part of XIV.

I think Abdallah Laroui wrote something on this, on his "History of the Maghreb"
 
well you see the thing is we could have three major powerblocs in the christian world if Islam doesnt take over North Africa. North Africa would be majority Monophisite and be more close with the Patriarchate of Alexandria. In otl ALexandria grew extremly powerful and so it was countered by a temporary union of sorts between the Patriarch of Constantinople and the Pope of Rome. Thus without the fall of North Africa Byzantium loses it and it becomes the heartland of Monophysites. So this could butterfly away the split beetween constantinople and rome because their would still be a powerful monophysite church in the world and this would lead to massive butterflies.
 
It's more or less what Pirenne argued, and even if the rupture wasn't total nor immediate, I think his theory is totally valable.

I was reading through your post and thought, "Hey! That sounds like Pirenne!"

I enjoyed Pirenne, and I've read much of his work, but it's my understanding that it's now dated. Maybe someone has some more recent insight on the issue?
 
I was reading through your post and thought, "Hey! That sounds like Pirenne!"

I enjoyed Pirenne, and I've read much of his work, but it's my understanding that it's now dated. Maybe someone has some more recent insight on the issue?

Well, Pirenne's works are clearly dated, critically about the extent of the mediterranean trade for western Europe and its role about the transfer of economical dynamist from South to North.

Still, even if it's a debate about this, Pirenne is still acknowledged for this thesis (that was the second book I had to read for studies after "Guerrier et Paysan" of Duby) and Le Goff (that is saying pest and inner dynamist of Northern trade played a greater role) have many things in his methodolgy issued from Pirenne, like the importence of social-economy in analysis.
 
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