WI No Washington Naval Treaty?

Hi guys, I've been kicking around ideas for a Timeline, and I was wondering, what POD would be neccesary for there to A) be no WNT, B)be no European War, and C) be a non military dictatorship Japan allied with Britain against the United States?

I'm fairly sure that A and C are doable while B is more tricky. I'd appreicate any input that you guys have.
 

CalBear

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No Washington Treaty = UK Bankrupt, Japan Bankrupt, U.S. stuck with 200,000 tons of ships that will be obsolescent by 1938-39.

Probable result would be a earlier global depression and a rather nasty European War right around 1936-38.
 
Alright, but what would it take for the UK and Japan to be allied against the United States in ww2? In addition, what would prevent a European front from breaking out?
 
No Washington Treaty = UK Bankrupt, Japan Bankrupt, U.S. stuck with 200,000 tons of ships that will be obsolescent by 1938-39.

Probable result would be a earlier global depression and a rather nasty European War right around 1936-38.
As Curzon noted, the UK was in no position to argue too hard with US as it owed the US 4.2 billion dollars from WW I, which if the US demanded would cause the collapse of the UK economy. Of course, the UK never did pay back this money.
 
Alright, but what would it take for the UK and Japan to be allied against the United States in ww2? In addition, what would prevent a European front from breaking out?
A miracle of a bad sort. Maybe Churchill and Mosley form some sort of fascist government. Churchill was a fan of the Italian fascists and spoke admiringly of Hitler before he began to become competitors with the empire.
 
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A miracle of a bad sort. Maybe Churchill and Mosley form some sort of fascist government. Churchill was a fan of the Italian fascists and spoke admiringly of Hitler before he began to become competitors with the empire.
Would a POD of around 1914 work better then?
 

CalBear

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Alright, but what would it take for the UK and Japan to be allied against the United States in ww2? In addition, what would prevent a European front from breaking out?

Alien Space Bats.

The British had to chose between the U.S., a country that was already the richest on Earth, had unlimited resources, and shared both an Ocean and culture with the UK, a long land border with a critical Dominion, and was perfectly placed to take Bermuda, the Bahamas, and Jamaica away from the UK on any afternoon it chose, a country that, incidentally, held UK markers for better than FOUR BILLION 1919 dollars, and Japan, a relatively poor country on the far side of the Planet that was becoming a pain in the neck to British concessions in China, was both feared and disliked by the Australians and New Zealanders.

That is not a particularly difficult decision on any number of levels.

An European war was assured the minute the Great War ended. The "peace" left a series of disastrous border situations, bad blood galore, and multiple enemies just itching to get a shot at each other again.
 
Of course, the UK never did pay back this money.

well considering it was the us bacnking crash that was the final trigger to the depression, id imagine wed be even...

besides it was mute anyways with the advent of ww2, which we only finished paying back in the late 1990s


and if your talking who owes who now, the us owes a shit tonne to alot of people...namley china
 
well considering it was the us bacnking crash that was the final trigger to the depression, id imagine wed be even...

besides it was mute anyways with the advent of ww2, which we only finished paying back in the late 1990s


and if your talking who owes who now, the us owes a shit tonne to alot of people...namley china

Saying the US banking caused the depression is incorrect.

I am not sure what you mean with the assertion that WW II rendered the debts moot. Are you saying that the UK owed so much to the US for propping up the UK during WW II that these WW I debts did not mean much?

The debts from WW II were actually paid off in the 21st century.

The US debts to China have not (yet) been defaulted upon by the US.

Of course, the US debt to China would be lessened if the UK paid the WW I debts and interest to the US that it defaulted upon and the US then applied these toward its debt China. That would take about half a trillion dollars off of the US ledger.
 
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Cook

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Maybe Churchill and Mosley form some sort of fascist government. Churchill was a fan of the Italian fascists and spoke admiringly of Hitler before he began to become competitors with the empire.
Given that Churchill was a far greater fan of the United States than he ever was of Mussolini, and was one of the first in Britain to speak out against Hitler and the Nazis, this is a red herring to say the least.
 
Given that Churchill was a far greater fan of the United States than he ever was of Mussolini, and was one of the first in Britain to speak out against Hitler and the Nazis, this is a red herring to say the least.
I would not say it was so much of a red herring as much as showing how unlikely it was. Churchill's opinion of the US was complicated and somewhat contradictory, not unlike his relationship with his mother, who was American by birth.
 
Hi guys, I've been kicking around ideas for a Timeline, and I was wondering, what POD would be neccesary for there to A) be no WNT, B)be no European War, and C) be a non military dictatorship Japan allied with Britain against the United States?

I'm fairly sure that A and C are doable while B is more tricky. I'd appreicate any input that you guys have.

My take on these, in order: A) No Washington Treaty. This one's going to take a major historical overhaul, simply because so many of the major powers wanted the treaty to go through in some form. Great Britain couldn't afford an unrestricted capital ship building race...individual ships were becoming tremendously expensive, and the vast scope of the Empire meant needing a *lot* of ships. The US wanted the treaty because there was little to no public support for large-scale naval spending. In Japan, Isoroku Yamamoto was part of a small but surprisingly vocal and influential 'pro-treaty' faction that realized that Japan could not compete with the US in an unrestricted building race. With so many players seeking some form of treaty, it's pretty much a given that some form of treaty will be had. Your POD for this one is going to have to be far enough back, and radical enough, to either massively upgrade Japanese industrial capacity or vastly reduce American capacity, or both. B) No European war. Best POD for this would probably be in early to mid World War I. Given the political, legal, and financial results of OTLs World War I, some form of conflict in Europe was pretty much a given. C) Japan and Great Britain allied against the United States. Alien Space Bats. Bats with good cigars and whiskey to drug the populace. Mind control lasers to radically change the way policy makers on both sides of the Atlantic (and the Pacific) thought.
 
Imperial Japan might slowly build up its Naval Strength...

Likewise the British...
Maybe Britain and France will reduce the level of demands of reparations with Germany or even speed it up if they perceived that the threat/potential growth of a Naval buildup from the U.S.A. exceeds their ability to not only pay back their war loans to America but also keep up parity with USN ships coming off the slips ...

lots of possibilities...
There is the threat from the growing Soviet Union as she builds up her Armed Forces... mostly her land forces...

That might cause alot of headaches on which policies that Britain and France will use with Germany..

Use the Reparations of funds from Germany to buildup their Navies...,
reduce Reparations demands from Germany so that they can be a bulwark against the Communistic threat in the East??

Unknown... regardless...

Buildup of Battlecruisers will be interesting tho what had happen to the British BCs will probably teach folks that they would either need to bulk up the armoured for the BCs or just build faster and better Battleships...

Maybe Britain will follow OTL and build lots of heavy & regular cruisers....
meh...

Possibly the Aircraft Carriers will be initially be used as scout carriers until aircraft technology allows the planes to be able to carry a thousand pounds of bombload and reach at least the range of One Hundred Miles...
probably by the late 1920s...

And....
possibly more Submarines would be built so as to be used for scouting and anti-warship patrols against each other...
 
The US wanted the treaty because there was little to no public support for large-scale naval spending. In Japan, Isoroku Yamamoto was part of a small but surprisingly vocal and influential 'pro-treaty' faction that realized that Japan could not compete with the US in an unrestricted building race. With so many players seeking some form of treaty, it's pretty much a given that some form of treaty will be had.
The US had considerable support for a strong navy. Wilson was a fan of a bigger USN, which is why the UK did not get an earlier naval treaty. Harding's presidential platform contained a plank favoring a big navy and continuing the growth. States such as Massachusetts and New York favored a big Navy.

While somee scholars have argued that there was not support, a more nuanced and imho correct explanation is that the US realized that no other natin could afford the race so acceptance of a treaty was manufactured. A coalition among isolationists, pacifists, and fiscal conservatives was made. Consent for the treaty was carefully manufactured, as the Republicans saw they could maintain parity with the UK and save money at the same time. Thus, Harding flipped-flopped.

One technique for manufacturing treaty support, for example, was limiting Congressional discussion on the treaty. The US Navy, which objected to the treaty was not allowed to have its testify before Congreas at the hearings on the treaty. Conversely, when the UK began to build a large number of cruisers later in the decade while still seeking to renege its debts from WW I, the USN was called to testify on the threat these cruisers posed. This generated considerable concern over the UK actions and the UK eventually modified its plans.
 
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