WI No Vichy France

So what if there was no Vichy France . This is a difficult one as it was to Hitlers advantage to have a French rump state.
, President Albert Lebrun appointed the 84-year-old Pétain as his replacement on 16 June 1940. The Armistice with France (Second Compiègne) agreement was signed on 22 June 1940. A separate French agreement was reached with Italy, which had entered the war against France on 10 June, well after the outcome of the battle was decided.

Adolf Hitler had a number of reasons for agreeing to an armistice. He wanted to ensure that France did not continue to fight from North Africa, and he wanted to ensure that the French Navy was taken out of the war. In addition, leaving a French government in place would relieve Germany of the considerable burden of administering French territory, particularly as Hitler turned his attentions toward Britain. Finally, as Germany lacked a navy sufficient to occupy France's overseas territories, Hitler's only practical recourse to deny the British use of those territories was to maintain France's status as a de jure independent and neutral nation. However, Nazi espionage against France after its defeat intensified greatly, particularly in southern France.[11]


Maybe if you remove Petain from the mix due to death or ill health . Anyway some change that makes Hitler pursue the war with France longer without an armistice.

Hitler would need to expend more forces and face an active French navy and what ever other parts of the French armed forces that could be salvaged.
 
So what if there was no Vichy France . This is a difficult one as it was to Hitlers advantage to have a French rump state.
, President Albert Lebrun appointed the 84-year-old Pétain as his replacement on 16 June 1940. The Armistice with France (Second Compiègne) agreement was signed on 22 June 1940. A separate French agreement was reached with Italy, which had entered the war against France on 10 June, well after the outcome of the battle was decided.

Adolf Hitler had a number of reasons for agreeing to an armistice. He wanted to ensure that France did not continue to fight from North Africa, and he wanted to ensure that the French Navy was taken out of the war. In addition, leaving a French government in place would relieve Germany of the considerable burden of administering French territory, particularly as Hitler turned his attentions toward Britain. Finally, as Germany lacked a navy sufficient to occupy France's overseas territories, Hitler's only practical recourse to deny the British use of those territories was to maintain France's status as a de jure independent and neutral nation. However, Nazi espionage against France after its defeat intensified greatly, particularly in southern France.[11]


Maybe if you remove Petain from the mix due to death or ill health . Anyway some change that makes Hitler pursue the war with France longer without an armistice.

Hitler would need to expend more forces and face an active French navy and what ever other parts of the French armed forces that could be salvaged.

The entire Armée de l' Air was being evacuated to Algeria, which would alter the balance of power in the Mediterranean considerably in the period from June 1940 until the end of 1942.
 
A bad TL:

Hitler offers Spain a huge offer to come in. A slice of southern France proper, All of Morocco, 1/2 of Algeria and a chunk of whatever can be looted in France. (all can be offered now)
Plus of course Gibraltar and whatever can be secured in a final treaty.

Germany skips the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe moves south, Germany dominates by air power the strait between Morocco and Spain and moves across.

Italy having to deal with France still in doesn't invade Greece or try any offensives (but gets to occupy a nice chunk of Southern France) but waits for German air power to dominate the med (easier with the strait of Gibraltar closed off).

Germany fully engaged here doesn't invade the Soviet Union but with bases in Spain can more easily dominate the Atlantic with u boats and long range aircraft and maybe even an Italian cruiser or two as extra commerce raiders.
 
A bad TL:

Hitler offers Spain a huge offer to come in. A slice of southern France proper, All of Morocco, 1/2 of Algeria and a chunk of whatever can be looted in France. (all can be offered now)
Plus of course Gibraltar and whatever can be secured in a final treaty.

Germany skips the Battle of Britain, the Luftwaffe moves south, Germany dominates by air power the strait between Morocco and Spain and moves across.

Italy having to deal with France still in doesn't invade Greece or try any offensives (but gets to occupy a nice chunk of Southern France) but waits for German air power to dominate the med (easier with the strait of Gibraltar closed off).

Germany fully engaged here doesn't invade the Soviet Union but with bases in Spain can more easily dominate the Atlantic with u boats and long range aircraft and maybe even an Italian cruiser or two as extra commerce raiders.

Western Europe has fallen. All nice and good. However, does Hitler now pivot to the Balkans, does Barbarrosa still happen on time? Or does Hitler get bogged down helping the Italians and Spanish push further into French West Africa? I can see this TL developing into just a Axis versus France war... the UK might even just say "screw it" and take from France what it can in a peace treaty that divides France's colonies. Later on another war begins, this time with the Soviet Union and Germany in which case Germany gets kicked in the face by the USSR and the USSR dominates all of Europe.
 
Spain didn't join the war not because Hitler didn't offer them a good deal but because after a long, bloody civil war Spain couldn't go to war and instead needed to focus on reconstruction.
 
The entire Armée de l' Air was being evacuated to Algeria, which would alter the balance of power in the Mediterranean considerably in the period from June 1940 until the end of 1942.

Does anyone have details on what was actually evac'd to Algeria ?
As far as I know the parts of the lAdlA attached to the army (recon, ground attack and some fighters) was specifically NOT moved.

Also as lAdlA was notoriously short of pilots I wonder about spare aircrafts. Note that they had more modern aircraft at the armestice that they had on 10th of May (though some weren't fully equiped), and I recall the germans having units equipped with french airplanes on the east front.

More importantly, it takes a lot more than just the planes and pilots. Mechanics, tools, spareparts, fuel, ammunition just to name the major ones. Not sure what would have already been in NA, but probably not much.

IIRC the french didn't have the transport aircraft to move much (unlike the LW which managed to move airfields forward by JU-52 power). So all the major stuff (and if you are serious it is a lot) must come by ship - quite a few of them.

It's one thing to move the planes & pilots to get them away from the germans, but quite another to move enough stuff to run an air campaign.

Now if anyone has details...
 
If 'No Vichy France' means German occupation, then the Free French will be the Legitimist regime, and all of overseas France (starting with Algeria) will be on the Allies side. Also, the entire French navy will sortie to overseas ports.

Basically you're looking at a 'France Fights On' scenario, which exists in a couple of forms outside this website. A couple of people here have also done such scenarios.

With Algeria and Tunisia, as well as Egypt in Allied hands, the Italians in Libya get crushed quickly, before the Germans can send support. Without the distraction of Libya, more Commonwealth forces are in Crete, which never falls. With air support all along the African shore, convoys to e.g. Malta are much safer. French colonial troops gather and a Franco-British invasion of Sicily happens, clearing the Med even more.

Oh. And without a legitimate Vichy régime to invite the Japanese into Vietnam, they can't just walk in and take over. Which MASSIVELY impacts the whole Pacific War.
 
Spain didn't join the war not because Hitler didn't offer them a good deal but because after a long, bloody civil war Spain couldn't go to war and instead needed to focus on reconstruction.
Which is why Franco basically demanded conditions that Germany could not accept. That way he could still be friendly with the Germans, but not have to lift a finger to help them. And it worked; Hitler even said that he would "rather have three teeth pulled than negotiate with that man" or something to that effect.
 
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