WI no Spanish gold

[Unconsensual]

What would be the effects on the world if Spanish gold was never looted in bulk from the New World? Not to say that North America doesn't get colonized but that the Aztecs and Incas have some degree of success resisting as opposed to OTL's perfect storm. Personally I'm interested in the lack of economic stimulus that the rest of Europe got from Spain combined with the lack of local silver/gold sources.

 

[SavoyTruffle]

Having no Europe-spanning Habsburg Empire would help greatly here. Most of the precious metal looted from the New World led to inflation due to it being used to fund the Habsburg wars in Italy and the Empire.

 

[LSCatilina]

What would be the effects on the world if Spanish gold was never looted in bulk from the New World? Not to say that North America doesn't get colonized but that the Aztecs and Incas have some degree of success resisting as opposed to OTL's perfect storm. Personally I'm interested in the lack of economic stimulus that the rest of Europe got from Spain combined with the lack of local silver/gold sources.

First the latest search confirm that american gold was never used for money until 1700's. Not "just a little", no one piece analyzed showed a similarity with american metal.

Second, it is evaluated that at least 1/3 of the american gold disappered on sea. No. Not in the hands of corsairs and privateers. Litteraly in the sea.

The economical stimulus wasn't that important for Europe (except the taxation) and it was more directed towards italian bankers. The port of Genoa recieved flotilla of gold to pay the interest of the loan taken by spanish monarchs. American gold directly passed on the paiment of european wars.

Now, it certainly gave a stimulus for America itself, funding and stimuling the colonization, the creation of latifundiae in the XVII.
And, more surprisingly, it helped greatly the trade with China, that searched silver ore.

So, Spain managed to buy tea, silk, etc. from a power that didn't wanted something else. It's basically why, and not a particular greed in itself for the metal, the Portuguese created a road to Potosi trough Brazil to "borrow" some of surplus.

Talking about mines, the climax of Zatatecas and Potosi production was reached in the XVII/XVIII thanks to more rational (aka, more mercure) mining.

 

[Unconsensual]

First the latest search confirm that american gold was never used for money until 1700's. Not "just a little", no one piece analyzed showed a similarity with american metal.

Second, it is evaluated that at least 1/3 of the american gold disappered on sea. No. Not in the hands of corsairs and privateers. Litteraly in the sea.

The economical stimulus wasn't that important for Europe (except the taxation) and it was more directed towards italian bankers. The port of Genoa recieved flotilla of gold to pay the interest of the loan taken by spanish monarchs. American gold directly passed on the paiment of european wars.

Now, it certainly gave a stimulus for America itself, funding and stimuling the colonization, the creation of latifundiae in the XVII.
And, more surprisingly, it helped greatly the trade with China, that searched silver ore.

So, Spain managed to buy tea, silk, etc. from a power that didn't wanted something else. It's basically why, and not a particular greed in itself for the metal, the Portuguese created a road to Potosi trough Brazil to "borrow" some of surplus.

Talking about mines, the climax of Zatatecas and Potosi production was reached in the XVII/XVIII thanks to more rational (aka, more mercure) mining.

Strange, my history books give me the classical loot&plunder Spanish armada story. Can you give me the source(s)? I'm rather interested.

 

[Faeelin]

First the latest search confirm that american gold was never used for money until 1700's. Not "just a little", no one piece analyzed showed a similarity with american metal.

Wow. Where's this from?

And gold, or silver? The latter was more important in currency, and was basically the only good Europeans could trade in east Asia.

 

[LSCatilina]

Strange, my history books give me the classical loot&plunder Spanish armada story. Can you give me the source(s)? I'm rather interested.

There was plunder and attacks of the Spanish flotilla in Atlantic, but many of the gold sent in Europe (aka not the one who stayed in America for administration or for colons) just disappered on sea.

Or sunked, or hijacked and dissimuled, or just...lost. Yeah, they lost many aztec treasures because they didn't remembered where they put it the evening before.

Wow. Where's this from?

And gold, or silver? The latter was more important in currency, and was basically the only good Europeans could trade in east Asia.

I said gold? Oops. I meant silver. But gold is probably concerned as well.
The Ecole Normale Superieure of Lyons, more rpecisely the team of Anne-Marie Desaulty analyzed real and "pesos de plata".

Answer, no money made from American metal before Felipe V. Charles Quint and Felipe III had "medieval" coins.

The american ore (300 tons every year for Richard L. Garner, but it's maybe too much) went directly in banker's chests, because the spanish crown used the gold and silver before it came in Europe.

And, yeah, it pretty much changed our conception of Spanish and European economy for this century. Another strike from The Year of ASB?

 

[Cecil]

Thats....actually amazingly interesting. Another of those things that "everyone knows" bites the dust.

 

[Unconsensual]

The american ore (300 tons every year for Richard L. Garner, but it's maybe too much) went directly in banker's chests, because the spanish crown used the gold and silver before it came in Europe.

That's fine but stimulus doesn't have to be real, it did cause bankers to lend out more money and monarchs to spend more due to the money they would have.

 

[LSCatilina]

That's fine but stimulus doesn't have to be real, it did cause bankers to lend out more money and monarchs to spend more due to the money they would have.

But it wouldn't be caused, as said previously, by the rises of the prices caused by a too much quantity of silver and gold coins.

The theory had to be sharpened : it is no longer a monetary crisis, but possibily (i insist on that, if we have to take a lesson here it is to not advance too much on why crsis happened) possibly a financial one.