The Soviet occupation of Eastern Germany was brutal. Whatever the Nazis did to the Soviets during Operation Barbarossa, the Soviets copied during the occupation. So what I want to figure out is, how can we prevent this from happening? Is there a way to have the Allies occupy the whole of Germany, and have the Soviets get not one bit? Either through a different peace treaty or earlier Allied invasion, I want no division of Germany between East and West.
WI No Soviet Occupation of Germany
- Thread starter TunguskaStorm
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One of the arguments by those who like Walter S. Dunn, Jr. argue that a second front in France "was not only possible in 1943 but advantageous to the West" https://books.google.com/books?id=xeu3DAAAQBAJ&pg=PA205 is that it would let British and American troops meet the Red Army at a point much further east than in OTL. Indeed, Dunn suggests that after Stalingrad "It is likely that Stalin did not want a second front in 1943, at least not in France. He feared that U.S. and British forces would not only sweep aside the weak German forces and occupy most of Germany but perhaps even parts of Poland, while the Russians were still fighting east of the Dnieper River. Because he was aware of the political risk of an early collapse of the Germans in the west in 1943, he supported the diversions to Sicily and Italy." Of course it is arguable that Dunn is far too optimistic about the chances of success of a Second Front in France in 1943; we have debated this here before and I don't want to get into it again.
BTW, I agree that the Soviet occupation was brutal, most notoriously the rapes of German women ("Frau, komm"), but I would not equate it as the OP seems to do with the mass extermination of peoples the Germans resorted to in the USSR. See https://books.google.com/books?id=KfXXAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA150
BTW, I agree that the Soviet occupation was brutal, most notoriously the rapes of German women ("Frau, komm"), but I would not equate it as the OP seems to do with the mass extermination of peoples the Germans resorted to in the USSR. See https://books.google.com/books?id=KfXXAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA150
Well, AANW certainly does not have Soviet occupation of Germany... So German victory over USSR or at least a stalemate of a sort would probably do - make USSR powerless to occupy anyone.
The western Allies did not have the troops in England in 1943 to invade France in the numbers that they had in 1944... in 1944 the Germans were not getting stronger in their defenses of the West. They were taking a mauling in Russia in 1943 and early 1944 as the Americans and others were collecting men and materiel for the invasion. Besides, the raid on Dieppe showed what could go wrong.
To be sure the German Army was destroyed quickly in western and southern France in the summer and autumn of 1944 -- but remember that the Soviet Army was destroying the Wehrmacht in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus at the time. While getting mauled in the East, the German general staff got almost complacent in the West -- and increasingly committed to the idea that the invasion was going through the Pas de Calais.
To be sure the German Army was destroyed quickly in western and southern France in the summer and autumn of 1944 -- but remember that the Soviet Army was destroying the Wehrmacht in Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus at the time. While getting mauled in the East, the German general staff got almost complacent in the West -- and increasingly committed to the idea that the invasion was going through the Pas de Calais.
How would that possibly work? If Germany is occupied the German war effort has collapsed long ago already, there's no fighting east of the Dnieper River if one side has no ammunition and supplies, it's just a question of how fast the Red Army can take POWs.
Yeah, who can't remember the Soviet concentration camps where they gassed the Germans?
The gassing happened in Germany toward the Jews... Where were you going with this?
...and the Soviets.
EDIT: Not to forget that many of the Jews were citizens of the USSR.
Khanzeer
Banned
Well even if allies took all of germany there is a good chance that east Prussia and eastern provinces are still lost to poland
Remember peace of Versailles was harsh ( and russians were nowhere close to Victors in 1918) dont think western allies cannot be just as vengeful as Soviets esp when they have no reason to prop up a west german state as a frontline to Soviets.Esp if they "liberate " most of western Poland.Then a quasi fascist Poland would be the FRG
Wrt warcrimes no one has their hands clean and considering what wehrmacht did to millions of Soviet PoWs I would say they were understandably in no mood to stop the rapes in berlin . WHat is much more regrettable is the suffering of pows, mass starvation of civilians whether forced or otherwise on both sides caught up between 2 diabolical regimes.
Deleted member 87099
The Germans planned the extermination of the Soviet people and even partially carried that out. What the Soviets did to Germany later was bad but nowhere near the horrors inflicted upon the Soviet Union by Germany.
Where they are going is to point out that as bad, as brutal, as the Soviet occupation of Germany was, it was not comparable to the Germans' mass extermination of peoples (especially but not only Jews) in the Soviet Union (as well as other places). Filip Slaveski, The Soviet Occupation of Germany: Hunger, Mass Violence and the Struggle for Peace, 1945-1947, writes:
"...the violence eventually subsided in 1947. By the middle of the year mass demobilisation had reduced the occupation force to 350,000 troops, who were much easier to lock in the barracks and keep away from the population — the only way really to deal with the problem. But in many ways the damage had already been done. Much of the population despised the Soviet-sponsored party which Stalin needed now more than ever to control the zone, which had become a violent industrial wasteland.
"However, it did not become one of the dead zones (Tote Zonen) that the Germans had left strewn across the western parts of the Soviet Union. For all of the violence, terror, and arbitrary rule which characterised daily life in the zone during the first years of the occupation, there were no mass killings, forced starvations, and the millions of corpses these left. We should not lose sight of what was at stake in 1945, that the most pressing question during the advance was whether the Soviets would now let the Germans live — life which the Germans had denied them. They did. SVAG's Herculean efforts to feed the German population so soon after German occupation forces starved millions of Soviet citizens to death remains an enduring testimony to the intelligence and humanity of its officers. It did not improve relations between occupiers and occupied for long, however, as Zhukov was correct to fear that the violence would undo much of the Soviets' good work and help sow the seeds of German hatred for decades to come. But at least they were left alive to spit it. Twenty million of Zhukov's civilian countrymen and ten million of his comrades were stripped of their chance to hate or forgive, as were their children who were never born." https://books.google.com/books?id=KfXXAAAAQBAJ&pg=PA150
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Stalin wanted the Oder Neisse line to give Poland some land back to make up for what the USSR took in September 1939 when they worked with Germany to dismember Poland.
Stalin wanted that line because he wanted to make Germany as small as reasonably possible. I am not blaming him for that (unlike other things) due to the circumstances, I would want that as well . However, let us be honest. Stalin couldn't have cared less about the Poles except their use as a buffer if Russia had to fight Germany again.
I agree that Stalin didn't care about the Poles but he knew that the Western Allies did and traded off German territory to keep FDR and Churchill happy.
Lusitania
Donor
I had the scenario described in this thread in my TL. It was possible due to combination of Nazis have access to not only Portuguese tungsten, but also iron ore, copper and oil during war. While Portugal stayed neutral like iotl and traded with both Axis snd Allies from 1940-1942 when America threatened to attack Portugal.
these extra resources Allowed Germans to capture Moscow at end of 1941 and both Leningrad and Stalingrad in 1942. But in 1943 the Russians finally launched their counter attack and started pushing the Germans back.
western allies offensive goes as per iotl while soviets only get as far west as Oder River. The eastern German army surrenders to western allies instead of pursuing Russians.
No Yalta conference leaves fate of Eastern Europe up for grabs. In 1945 Istanbul conference happen same time as US drops nuclear bombs in Japan.
Czechoslovakia is divided between Russians and western allies. soviets offered several areas of occupation but they are dispersed and they refuse.
so Germany never occupied by soviets (East Prussia still gets divided between communist Poland and soviet union.
these extra resources Allowed Germans to capture Moscow at end of 1941 and both Leningrad and Stalingrad in 1942. But in 1943 the Russians finally launched their counter attack and started pushing the Germans back.
western allies offensive goes as per iotl while soviets only get as far west as Oder River. The eastern German army surrenders to western allies instead of pursuing Russians.
No Yalta conference leaves fate of Eastern Europe up for grabs. In 1945 Istanbul conference happen same time as US drops nuclear bombs in Japan.
Czechoslovakia is divided between Russians and western allies. soviets offered several areas of occupation but they are dispersed and they refuse.
so Germany never occupied by soviets (East Prussia still gets divided between communist Poland and soviet union.
Even that shows he didn't give a damn what the Polish people themselves thought. He just saw Poland as a buffer state.