WI: No Sketchy Wars

While trying to fall asleep one night a thought occurred to me about America's war history. Everytime we have fought a war on sketchy grounds (false information, prodding of war hawks, prodding of media, divine right, etc...) the war has gone badly and the end result was that the USA undergoes a shift on both the public and government levels. Most of the time these things sort themselves out for the better but the result is the same. The USA that started the war is completely different from the USA that ends the war.

The three wars that stand out most to me are:

1. War of 1812

2. Vietnam War

3. Iraq War 2003


What if the USA manages to avoid all three of these wars? How is the USA we know changed on both the public and government level? Also how is the USA viewed on a world stage if we never engage in these wars?

Any thoughts would be appreciated.
 
Every? The Mexican War, Spanish American War, a lot of the U.S. Indian Wars, and arguably U.S. entry into WWI were at least as sketchy as the examples you gave, and they were all smashing successes. Polk's American blood on American soil is at least as much of a lie as Iraqi WMDs, Wilson's machinations to get us into WWI were worse than Johnson's with Vietnam, the S-A War was a pretty blatant act of aggression based on media manipulation and outright lies. So no, sketchy grounds does not make for an unsuccessful war, nor do they always lead to social shifts, unless you want to include the vastly increased land and wealth from the M-A War, strengthened nationalism and healing the wounds of the Civil War from the S-A War, and our power demonstrated on the world stage from WWI.
 
I will not deny that there are positives to these type of wars. But the question remains as to what happens if we avoid those three wars mentioned in the first post. How different will America be?
 
Could you please name some US wars that weren't "sketchy"?

I can see no difference in "sketchyness" between the war of 1776 and WW2. Vietnam was a continuation of the Korea doctrine - a war that according to you wasn't "sketchy".

Why is Iraq "sketchy" but not Afghanistan?

Or does "sketchy" mean "a war that the US didn't win overwhelmingly"?

I will not deny that there are positives to these type of wars. But the question remains as to what happens if we avoid those three wars mentioned in the first post. How different will America be?
 
Could you please name some US wars that weren't "sketchy"?

I can see no difference in "sketchyness" between the war of 1776 and WW2. Vietnam was a continuation of the Korea doctrine - a war that according to you wasn't "sketchy".

Why is Iraq "sketchy" but not Afghanistan?

Or does "sketchy" mean "a war that the US didn't win overwhelmingly"?


Well Korea did start after the North Koreans invaded South Korea, and the war enjoyed broad international support, unlike Vietnam or PG II. Afghanistan was the result of the US going after a terrorist organization that effectively declared war on the US in 2001, besides the place was already a shit hole before we got there, not like we could make it much of a worse one. WWI and the S-A war were definetly "sketchy", even PG I had some sketchiness to it, but few wars don't have something sketchy about them, even WWII was sketchy in that the allies ineptitude caused it to be far worse than it had to be.
 
Alright apparently people are reading to much into the word sketchy. Yeah I know it's in the title, but that's all the title is, a title.

The main point of this entire thread is what kind of America exists if we avoid fighting the following three wars:

1. War of 1812

2. Vietnam War

3. Iraq War 2003


How are we viewed throughout the world?

How is America affected at both the political and public level?
 
On a tenuously related note, why do so many people write 'to' when they mean 'too'? Is an extra 'o' really that much trouble?

On a related note, the question you asked is quite a complicated one and I think you're trying to oversimplify it. You've asked two questions related to three wars.

"If America avoids the War of 1812, how are we viewed throughout the world and what are the changes to American society at the political and public levels?"

"If America avoids the Vietnam War, how are we viewed throughout the world and what are the changes to American society at the political and public levels?"

"If America avoids The Second Gulf War, how are we viewed throughout the world and what are the changes to American society at the political and public levels?"

Each of these three questions, I think would require a thread of it's own to be answered in depth. The way you've set out this thread is just going to confuse and annoy people.

I'm confused and annoyed; but I'm not annoyed because I'm confused.

:)
 
If you had avoided the War for Rich People Owning Slaves and not paying taxes (1776-1783) I imagine you would be viewed very differently today.
 
If you had avoided the War for Rich People Owning Slaves and not paying taxes (1776-1783) I imagine you would be viewed very differently today.

Well, this is a prime example of quantity of posts not being the same as quality of posts.

I guess it was also the USA that fought the War to Supply Chinese With Opium, starved the Irish, helped divide up Africa and the Middle East, etc, etc. In the British Empire, there was no slavery, and rich people always paid their fair share. No mass slaughter of natives defending their right to rule themselves and keep their lands.

Uh oh, I'm sinking to the same level of trolling as Wozza.
 
What sense of humour?

I don't know, I really don't. If you don't see the absurdity of asking how the War of 1812 affects perceptions of the USA in the world today it's probably best not to even try on the amusement front. Only pain and sorrow can possibly result.
 
I don't know, I really don't. If you don't see the absurdity of asking how the War of 1812 affects perceptions of the USA in the world today it's probably best not to even try on the amusement front. Only pain and sorrow can possibly result.

My apologies, Wozza. I had assumed you were being serious. I've employed sarcasm myself online, and gotten blasted by those who thought I was serious. Now I've gone and joined the other side. What is that warning about becoming like the enemy? Again, my apologies.

Though, I do think the War of 1812 does affect preceptions of the USA, based on what I've read in email groups and online forums. It seems to be a huge reason for Canadians' view of the USA, for instance.
 
My apologies, Wozza. I had assumed you were being serious. I've employed sarcasm myself online, and gotten blasted by those who thought I was serious. Now I've gone and joined the other side. What is that warning about becoming like the enemy? Again, my apologies.

Though, I do think the War of 1812 does affect preceptions of the USA, based on what I've read in email groups and online forums. It seems to be a huge reason for Canadians' view of the USA, for instance.

That's fine, I really was just being silly.

Really? I find that quite interesting, are you sure it is not just a few loud history geeks? Our Canadians rarely mention it or start TLs. It's mainly an American interest based on their fascination with their early history.

I also strongly agree with xchen's comment, we have a very arbitrary selection of sketchy here.
 
Really? I find that quite interesting, are you sure it is not just a few loud history geeks? Our Canadians rarely mention it or start TLs. It's mainly an American interest based on their fascination with their early history.

I also strongly agree with xchen's comment, we have a very arbitrary selection of sketchy here.
Actually, I do think the War of 1812 was one of the defining moments of Canadian identity. In the top ten, at least. And even if many Canadians aren't currently aware of it.

As for TL's, we've got Crown and Tomahawk, and my own (see sig), currently both in operation.
 
Are you saying that trying to tie together how avoiding those three wars affects America is to complicated to do in post and for any of our members to figure out?
 
Could you please name some US wars that weren't "sketchy"?

I can see no difference in "sketchyness" between the war of 1776 and WW2. Vietnam was a continuation of the Korea doctrine - a war that according to you wasn't "sketchy".

Why is Iraq "sketchy" but not Afghanistan?

Or does "sketchy" mean "a war that the US didn't win overwhelmingly"?
Because Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan, not Iraq. Because the grounds for entering the war were valid, not invalid. Because the international community was on board in Afghanistan, for those reasons.

Very different wars.
 
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