WI no Russia in WII

You'd need too many POD's. The entire purpose of WWII was to attack Russia. Everything else Hitler did were just the steps he felt were necessary to prepare for that.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
You'd need too many POD's. The entire purpose of WWII was to attack Russia. Everything else Hitler did were just the steps he felt were necessary to prepare for that.

One might be enough. Hitler killed with night time Bombing raid on command post, June, 1940.
 
One might be enough. Hitler killed with night time Bombing raid on command post, June, 1940.

But didn't Goring feel the same way about the soviets? I think you'd need a POD of around 1920, to prevent the Nazis from taking power.
 
Why?

Presuming they just don't, ignoring the reason why they started the war in the first place, the Soviet Union launch's it's own invasion in 1943/44.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
But didn't Goring feel the same way about the soviets? I think you'd need a POD of around 1920, to prevent the Nazis from taking power.

The chaos of a leadership struggle combined with the new leader consolidating power delays it at least a year. Also, the new leader might decide to do a Britain first strategy. Also, why can't Goering be at the command center with Hitler?
 
The chaos of a leadership struggle combined with the new leader consolidating power delays it at least a year. Also, the new leader might decide to do a Britain first strategy. Also, why can't Goering be at the command center with Hitler?
IF Goering is in the command center, then Donitz would be in command(maybe himmler). You would need a non nazi high command to consider not attacking Russia, and ironically, in mid 1940, the German high command was actively pursuing a Britain first policy through the battle of Britain. I will agree that Germany would have to seriously stall their plans if Hitler died, but it wouldn't cancel them.
 
Nazi Germany rots away. Once the MOAR DAKKA! economic system and general nutcase evilness of the regime give it a short life-span.

The Soviets are far better off if they choose to strike west or not...Italy might also be lumbered with Benny the Moose for a bit longer. On the other hand Japan might get curm-stomped sooner.
 

BlondieBC

Banned
IF Goering is in the command center, then Donitz would be in command(maybe himmler). You would need a non nazi high command to consider not attacking Russia, and ironically, in mid 1940, the German high command was actively pursuing a Britain first policy through the battle of Britain. I will agree that Germany would have to seriously stall their plans if Hitler died, but it wouldn't cancel them.

Yes, it is not an easy POD, but very doable. Maybe Hitler is killed while visiting the SS HQ with Goering at his side. Now a lot of the stalling is if the plans are delayed until summer 42, the USA could easily be at war with Germany, which would make any sane leader think twice about attacking Russia.

You also need a non-fanatic in charge.
 
Yes, it is not an easy POD, but very doable. Maybe Hitler is killed while visiting the SS HQ with Goering at his side. Now a lot of the stalling is if the plans are delayed until summer 42, the USA could easily be at war with Germany, which would make any sane leader think twice about attacking Russia.

You also need a non-fanatic in charge.
Yeah. Personally, I think that the most plausible would be a coup by several non-nazi generals(early July 20th plot), who would realize that it would be insane to attack Russia while at war with the west.
 
POD 1919. Rather than going back to Germany and getting all angry, Hitler moves to Paris and becomes an opium addict.

The end.
 
A lot of things will have to go into the pot:

Rapallo: A good load of German military were actually fine with Rapallo and did not have any desire of a war against Soviet. Soviet and Germany were both "looked down upon" so became natural bed fellows.

Somehow, maybe, get the military (not SS) to refuse to plan for ward against Soviet?

That , however, would have to be in a non-Hitler world (sic!)

Communist ruled Germany?

The minute you have NSDAP/Hitler in power, that war will happen

So, maybe social democrats in Germany, not the communists? except they were not interested in finishing the un-finished business which by and large was WWI

Maybe turn Soviet into a Pacific/Asian power via Siberia? but that will not make sense insofar as the industrial capacity is in the West.

good luck, it is a tall order, that.

Ivan
 
This requires a very different view of just what Germany would want in any renewed general war in Europe. Germany IOTL was as per the Hossbach Memorandum gearing up the German armed forces for an invasion of the USSR in four years, any war scares were thus not cases where Germany was actually going to be deterred but instead reflected on the ability of the West to temporarily forestall the onrushing tide. A Germany intent on, for whatever reason, avoiding war with the USSR will adopt completely different policies from the OTL one.
 
WI Nazi Germany Didn't attack Russia In WW2?
Well, Hitler would have to be dead. Attacking Russia and subjugating the "subhumans" was a very key element to him. So long as he was alive, it was just a question of when he would atttack, not IF.

but, say Hitler dies during the Battle of Britain...it would depend upon who takes control. if the outcome is a military coup, I do not see Russian being pre-emptively attacked. I think there would be an overwelming attitude to setttle things with England first...which could take years.

Without the Russian front drawing off resources, I don't see that the Allies can ever re-establish a foothold on the continent. England may not fall but I can't see Overlord even being attempted...let alone succeeding.

the first atomic bombs would probably be used on Berlin and other major German cities...but there may be some problems as I think a Germany able to concentrate on air defense in the West without Hitler's interference or a Russian war...would probably be a lot tougher to sustain a strategic air offensive against.

I've seen discussion that Stalin was planning to attack Germany and got beaten to the punch. I am uncertain as to how accurate these assertations are. Even if he was thinking about attacking, Stalin's attention might have shifted toward Asia with Japan's attack on the US. I think Stalin was opportunistic. He was looking for weakness he could attack. With the very recent history that existed of Japanese armies being very roughly handled by Russian forces...he might have opted to move against the Japanese while they were embroiled in fighting with the US.

Tim
 
Well, Hitler would have to be dead. Attacking Russia and subjugating the "subhumans" was a very key element to him. So long as he was alive, it was just a question of when he would atttack, not IF.

but, say Hitler dies during the Battle of Britain...it would depend upon who takes control. if the outcome is a military coup, I do not see Russian being pre-emptively attacked. I think there would be an overwelming attitude to setttle things with England first...which could take years.

Without the Russian front drawing off resources, I don't see that the Allies can ever re-establish a foothold on the continent. England may not fall but I can't see Overlord even being attempted...let alone succeeding.

the first atomic bombs would probably be used on Berlin and other major German cities...but there may be some problems as I think a Germany able to concentrate on air defense in the West without Hitler's interference or a Russian war...would probably be a lot tougher to sustain a strategic air offensive against.

I've seen discussion that Stalin was planning to attack Germany and got beaten to the punch. I am uncertain as to how accurate these assertations are. Even if he was thinking about attacking, Stalin's attention might have shifted toward Asia with Japan's attack on the US. I think Stalin was opportunistic. He was looking for weakness he could attack. With the very recent history that existed of Japanese armies being very roughly handled by Russian forces...he might have opted to move against the Japanese while they were embroiled in fighting with the US.

Tim

It was not just Hitler who'd agreed to all this, the whole Nazi state from the agreement in the Hossbach Memorandum was tilted toward it. The SS wanted it, Goering wanted it, and most of the Wehrmacht deliberately refused to take any strategic responsibility so whoever comes out on top between Himmler, Goering, and Boermann will be the new leader in the case of Barbarossa, while the generals would have to actually develop backbones and a willingness to take strategic thinking into account to run the war for them to actually carry out a coup. Neither of which characterize the Germans of WWII, though they did to a greater extent their ancestors in WWI.
 
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