WI No Rome?

Suppose the city of Rome is never founded. The Roman Kingdom, Republic, and Empire which grew from this are butterflied out of existence. What results from this? Which civilization(s) rise to dominate in place of Rome? How does this affect overall social and technological progress? What might the world be like today?

(Forgive me if this is noobish. I found nothing similar using the search function.)
 
The Etruscans would probably remain prominent in Italy, although I don't know how long that would last: Rome conquered them because their power was already waning, otherwise it wouldn't have been possible.

There are other cities that could potentially play a similar role to Rome: Capua and Alba Longa are the first two that spring to mind, Capua especially. Things would be quite different though, because they certainly wouldn't have the same view of citizenship as Rome (which was founded, supposedly, by bandits from other cities), so their growth would be different from Rome's expansion.

I'll try and think of more about this later...
 
Is central and southern Italy demographically destined to produce a great power?


No, i think Rome just was in the right place at the right time with the right ideas and thats how they were able to conquer a large portion of the known world. If Rome didn't exist I don't think that it means some other power has to fill the gap, it's possible that the western world just develops with a mixture of different peoples and cultures, trading and sharing ideas but not united as a single nation. After that who knows, there're so many butterflies I don't think it's possible to imagine the outcome.
 
Is central and southern Italy demographically destined to produce a great power?

Yes and no. certainly nothing the size of Rome. The Italic peoples at the time had a pronounced martial culture, were becoming urban civilisations with the socioal, administrative and technological capacity for power projection, and they evolved into a relative power vacuum (Carthage being far away, the Celts too unstable and the Greek cities too weak). A number of regional powers or a single one are extremely likely to develop. My money is on the Latins, Samnites or Oscans.

But fated to become like Rome? uch more likely to join the Hellenistic periphery and burn up like these states do.
 
Carthage would've done alot better; though, Carthage was more into trade, and less into conquest than Rome. So, I think, would the world's first real, successful representative democracy, the Greek Achaean League, which was too late on the scene to compete with Rome.

Rome had some unique cultural traits that let it do well until Caesar ended the Republic. It was consciously high-growth, valued checks and balances (vital for long-term success). Rome was also liberal, and yet a military specialist. Rome grew because its people were encouraged to and did constantly innovate military-wise. That was a unique combination. That liberality also let the Republic hold onto conquests easily.

But, another thing that helped was Italy's proximity to so many high-tech Greek colonies, notably Syracuse and G, where the catapult and quadrireme were developed. Italy had iron, and plenty of good farmland. Those are all things that could help many Italian states.
 
Suppose the city of Rome is never founded. The Roman Kingdom, Republic, and Empire which grew from this are butterflied out of existence. What results from this? Which civilization(s) rise to dominate in place of Rome? How does this affect overall social and technological progress? What might the world be like today?

My two cents:

In the north the celts could develop a city based culture in due time, thanks to the greek influence, while in the central part of the peninsula the samnits would become the leading power. Their expansion toward the richer southern regions would inevitably trigger the intervention of the near hellenistic powers. In this scenario, without Rome, Pyrrhus has definitly a good shot to build his kingdom, with Sicily as hard fought battleground with Carthage. Even if the king of Epirus would fail, South Italy would become a land of opportunity for the others hellenistic warlords.
 
Oops -- sorry, I didn't mean to step on your toes, CF. Maybe everyone can just let this thread die.

Looking forward to your TL. :)

Pfft, hardly anyone is paying attention to my TL and I believe in the more the merrier, so carry on fellow AHer!

I'm looking forward to this one as well. Wonder what parts will be similar and different. :)
 
Pfft, hardly anyone is paying attention to my TL and I believe in the more the merrier, so carry on fellow AHer!

I'm looking forward to this one as well. Wonder what parts will be similar and different. :)

I don't think I'll be making a TL about this, at least any time soon. I've got my Black Death one in the works, and I'm still checking for plausibility.
 
In Italy, either the Etruscans would retain power, or be overthrown by the Latins or Samnites. Alternately, a League of Hellenic city-states led by either Taras/Tarentum or Syracuse in Sicily could colonize the north. From the north, Celtic confederations such as the Boii, Senones or Insubres may pour down through Etruria and Umbria. Another scenario could involve the expansion west of either Macedonia or Epirus may be successful.

Unless a strong expansionistic state with a growing population catches up with them first, the Gauls could coalesce into larger state-level societies. They have a semi-unified religion and common law. They have a complex road system, coinage, sophisticated agriculture, and possess a wealth of metal ores. And trade with the Greek colonies on the southern coast as well as those whom travel to the Celtic lands via the Danube could enhance this process.

Either the Punic colonies and their native Iberian allies come to dominate the peninsula, or they will be overtaken by the Celtiberians in the north, or the Lusitanni in the west.

The most likely powerhouses of the Balkans may be the Kingdom of Macedon, the Celtic-led Scordisci confederation, or the unified kingdom of the Getai (Dacians) whom follow a proto-monotheist cult based on the teachings of Zalmoxis.

Unless Carthage can become more than a commercial empire, they may end up being overrun by the semi-nomadic Numidians in the west of North Africa.
 
Top