SuperZtar64
Banned
For whatever reason, Sextus Tarquinius decides not to rape Lucrece, thus keeping the Roman Monarchy around. What would happen?
However, here are my thougts: without expelling the Tarquinians, Rome stays at peace with the surrounding Etruscan city. Rome has no reason to fight them and no opportuniy to expand. Roma stays an average Italic city, a local power maybe but not more. Ruled by Etruscan kings, this Latin city would probably never rise to power. Other Etruscan or Greek cities might take Rome's place as the ruling power in Italy.
and it was already one of the biggest cities in Italy.
Is this backed up by archeology?
Yes, Cornell (The Beginnings of Rome) has a section comparing Rome with other cities of the period; as I recall, his conclusion was that Rome was about as large as one of the larger Greek cities.
Assuming only that the story of the Banishment of the Tarquins is historically accurate in its events and ramifications...
And if the POD is equally accurate...
Then a very subtle transformation takes place. A particularly Roman cultural ethic is lost. The ethic works in four parts:
1) To experience a problem
2) To solve the immediate problem by an act of valorous violence.
3) To go back, discuss, and analyze the root cause of the problem (in this case, the ability of any king to violate the particular honor of an honorable family)
4) To burn out the root of the problem by whatever act of LAW is necessary (in this case, the complete extirpation of the whole idea of kingship. A very UNIQUE development in the history of the world)
You not only leave the idea of kingship alive within Roman culture with this POD, you remove the idea of workable government based on an idea of LAW HIGHER THAN kingship completely out of the vocabulary of Western Civilization.
(China still has the concept of "Mandate of Heaven" so a republic model out of Asia is still possible. Also Islam was responsible for the death of any number of corrupt or overweening political establishments, so there's hope there too.)
Great post, but isn't the Mandate of Heaven just basically "if the emperor is doing well, he has the Mandate of Heaven"? As for Islam, that's butterflied away by at least 1100 years.
So Rome will become a major power in Italy anyway?
(in this case, the complete extirpation of the whole idea of kingship. A very UNIQUE development in the history of the world)
Rome also "tolerated kingship in others". What do you think all those client states were ?I believe Fabius Maximus has misunderstood me.
I used the word "extirpated." NO KINGS. Greeks tolerated kingship in others and tolerated tyrants among themselves. Romans established a policy of consuming Kings, royal families, and dynasties to feed the Republic and later the Empire. Please do not suggest otherwise. One should examine the fate of the Ptolemies when they fell into the hands of Rome. It's not a minor point.
Rome also "tolerated kingship in others". What do you think all those client states were ?
Yes, but they had those client state Kings draw up Legal Wills that turned their countries over to the care of the Senate and People of Rome, ending kingship in their countries.
Yes, but they had those client state Kings draw up Legal Wills that turned their countries over to the care of the Senate and People of Rome, ending kingship in their countries.
Not always (the aforementioned Ptolemies, for example, went through several generations as a Roman client state before finally being absorbed). Plus, this is more likely due to plain old expansionism rather than anti-monarchism. I note that the British in India did similar things to allied rulers, and they certainly didn't have an ideological hatred of monarchies.
That's only true in three cases that I know of (Pergamum, Egypt, Bithynia) out of the dozens of client states and hundreds of client kings that Rome has had.
I find the fact that the Ptolemy Dynasty (of political and arguably religious descent from Alexander the Great, a self-appointed king of kings if there ever was one) and its dismantling by Rome to be a singularly powerful example of a Republican founded culture crowing over the dead corpse of a Royally founded culture. But if you'll never share my point of view, I guess that's all I have to say on the subject. Do enjoy the rest of your weekend.