In 1947 a total of 55 Rolls-Royce Nene jet engines were sold to the Soviet Union as a gesture of good will. A part of the sales agreement was that the engines not be used for military purposes. The Soviets reneged on the deal after the Cold War began and reverse engineered the Nene to develop the Klimov RD-45, and a larger version, the Klimov VK-1, which soon appeared in various Soviet fighters including Mikoyan-Gurevich MiG-15.

What if the British Government never allowed the transfer to take place?

How would this have affected Soviet aircraft development?

What would the effects of this be during the Korean war and beyond?
 
Most likely the Commies would have managed to steal enough data or blueprints to eventually build their own. Such secrets do not stay secret for long. Instead of an "Authorized Legal Transfer" giving the Soviets the engines, they instead would have had enough data to develop their own. Just knowing something is possible or exists is half the battle of building your own.

Without the Mig 15 the B29 Korean bombing campaign would have concluded as intended. North Korea might have been defeated. The Chinese intervention might have been dramatically slowed down. But .... this might have given McAuthur (sp) more ideas on how to use the A Bomb. Difficult to ponder. The changes in the Koren War would be profound at least. Yikes!
 
Careful what you wish for... i have the feeling that the Derwent and Nene might have set BACK soviet jet development, afterall centrifugals were a dead end no? Without them the soviets would push their indigenous axial Lyulka TR-1 an TR-2 engines (and i'm sure others). Also interestingly, apparently the VK-1 project actually started BEFORE they got any Nenes, the Nene just helped a bit in the short term.

There is no question that swept wing transonic fighters would have been built, only perhaps the MiG-15 and later MiG-17 would have had a TR-1 (with afterburner would probably have same power as a Nene) or 2500 kgf TR-2 axials while some Lavochkins or Yaks would have been built around the VK-1.
 
Careful what you wish for... i have the feeling that the Derwent and Nene might have set BACK soviet jet development, afterall centrifugals were a dead end no? Without them the soviets would push their indigenous axial Lyulka TR-1 an TR-2 engines (and i'm sure others). Also interestingly, apparently the VK-1 project actually started BEFORE they got any Nenes, the Nene just helped a bit in the short term.

There is no question that swept wing transonic fighters would have been built, only perhaps the MiG-15 and later MiG-17 would have had a TR-1 (with afterburner would probably have same power as a Nene) or 2500 kgf TR-2 axials while some Lavochkins or Yaks would have been built around the VK-1.

The advantage of the Nenes was that they were working robustly and reliably rather than the 'better engines' that would require years of development and were not robust nor reliable (and whose fuel economy sucked).

Without them and the opportunity presented to the Russians to reverse engineer them the Mig 15 of Korea would effectively be an improved Mig 9/Mig 15 hybrid slightly better than the OTL Mig 9 aircraft but still a shadow of the superb Mig 15

As 'for Helping a bit in short term' - the only real difference between the Nene and RD-45 was that the RD-45 did not have RR written on the side.

The TR-1 engine would have to be perservired with - despite being a total failure OTL and due to the Nene and subsequant developed RD-45 derived from the Nene the TR-1 was cancelled - TTL it would have to soldier on with all of the problems experianced and never resolved OTL. I have no doubt that Russian Engineers were good enough to have resolved those issues but I am also sure that we would be looking at several years delay relative to OTL to produce something as good as the VK-1 powered Mig 15.

The VK-1 was an improved RD-45 and therefore an improved Nene - it was not an independent project - it could not have happened with out the Nene and subsequant RD-45 copy.

Given OTL Russian efforts on other engines I beleive that it would likely take until the early 50s before a home derived engine matching the Nene in power, fuel consumption and reliability was developed without otherwise getting their hands on working engines.

Lyulka AL-7 was probably the first decent all Russian engine and you are looking at the late 50s before anything mounting this engine is in front line service.
 
As 'for Helping a bit in short term' - the only real difference between the Nene and RD-45 was that the RD-45 did not have RR written on the side.
IIRC when Stanley Hooker was touring the People's Republic of China he saw a sectioned display model thanks to the Soviets having licensed production of their version to the Chinese and was able to jokingly point out to his hosts several of the mistakes that he had made in the original Nene design that the Soviets had copied straight over. :)
 
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I thought that our (British) annular combustion engines like the Nene, Derwent, Goblin and Ghost were dead ends and it was the turbojets that were the future?

BMW was axial flow, the way to go. But it wasn't so great. As listed above, the ATAR was 'inspired' by the 003, but other than being a 7 stage single shaft turbine, had little in common with it, larger diameter and length, different materials and design, so had a useful power output, more than twice as much.
003
bmw003-1a.jpg


ATAR 101
640px-Atar_101_B-2_Jet_Engine_and_Atar_101_G.jpg
 

Anderman

Donor
I thought that our (British) annular combustion engines like the Nene, Derwent, Goblin and Ghost were dead ends and it was the turbojets that were the future?

This engines are turbojets too but had combustion cans and not annular combustion chambers. The UK had axial flow design with a annular combustion chamber.
The MetroVick F2/Beryl

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan-Vickers_F.2 which ´inspired´ the Armstrong Siddeley Sapphire.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Armstrong_Siddeley_Sapphire
 
Whittle's engines may have ultimately been a dead end, but for the 1940's they were the right choice. Unlike others of their generation they were very reliable. Without the Nene the Mig 15 and 17 wouldn't have been fit for active service. The German engines that the Russians would have had to base their own designs on had to be scraped after 15 flight hours or so while the centrifugal engines on surviving aircraft are still going strong after up to 70 years service. Admittedly the German engines were made of unsuitable alloys that could have been fixed but even so those engines would still be inferior. They were little more than test beds rushed into service and needed a lot of work to turn into useful engines.
 

thorr97

Banned
No British jet engines in Red Air Force planes would've meant for a lot more Americans and Britons (and Canadians and Australians and everyone else fighting under the UN banner against the Communists) alive at the Korean war's end. And perhaps with absolute air dominance over the entire peninsula the UN forces might've been able to hold the Yalu line. Or at least not get pushed down so far on the peninsula that Seoul was then within easy artillery range of the North's guns.
 
Agaian, there seem to be a lot of blithe assumptions regarding soviet jet engines of the era. In SSP: Bombers the author says clearly (and this was a surprise even to me) that the VK1 was started BEFORE they ever got any Nenes, intended as a soviet equivalent to it yes, but the VK1 was designed to be more powerful anyway. When they got the Nenes they altered a few relatively minor things on the VK1, but the major components were kept. The main thing they got that was useful was the Nimonic alloy. So in a nutshell without Nenes and Derwents the soviets will accelerate VK1, TR2 etc. and fully concentrate in ironing their bugs. This can well result in a slightly delayed MiG-15 to say 1948 but built as a MiG-15bis, with a VK1 from the start, which is actually worse for the americans.

The downside for the soviets is that perhaps initially at least the VK1 will not have the TBO it had but say half that or something, but it will still be perfectly usable, and it's not like the soviets don't have enough planes to swap around. Perhaps they will also NOT close Sukhoi OKB, which was closely working with Lyulka and his engines (TR1/2/3 etc.) and they might get to built the Su-17 (first use of the designation), rather than cancel it which again is bad for the americans, hell as a soviet wank you can have MiG-17s and Su-17s fighting in Korea in 1952-1953 against the by now badly outclassed F-86.

So yes, in a nutshell you can argue that RD-45 and RD-500 might have set BACK soviet jet engine industry, without them all those resources would be poured into getting VK1 ready earlier than OTL and fixing the TR1/2/3 series issues. Btw TR2 was cancelled in 1947 because of the Nene availability, which perhaps cost Lyulka valuable experience in ironing out issues with his engines.
 
SSP: Bombers the author says clearly (and this was a surprise even to me) that the VK1 was started BEFORE they ever got any Nenes, intended as a soviet equivalent to it yes, but the VK1 was designed to be more powerful anyway. When they got the Nenes they altered a few relatively minor things on the VK1, but the major components were kept. The main thing they got that was useful was the Nimonic alloy. So in a nutshell without Nenes and Derwents the soviets will accelerate VK1, TR2 etc.
Are we sure and do you have links or quotes? I thought the VK1 was simply a slightly modified RD45 that's simply a copied Nene?
 
Soviet Secret projects: Bombers since 1945 by Yefim Gordon and Tony Buttler, page 17 i think. Another relevant quote: ..."in the VK1 the soviets had 'copied' the Nene long before they got their hands on it..." etc. etc.
Btw there's a mistake in the OP i think, afaik there were 25 Nenes and 30 Derwents delivered, not just 55 Nenes.

And as a sidenote, that supposed quote from Hooker, is there any substance to it or just some urban legend and cold war chest thumping? What "mistakes" did mr. Hooker was on about?
 
Most likely the Commies would have managed to steal enough data or blueprints to eventually build their own. Such secrets do not stay secret for long. Instead of an "Authorized Legal Transfer" giving the Soviets the engines, they instead would have had enough data to develop their own. Just knowing something is possible or exists is half the battle of building your own.

Without the Mig 15 the B29 Korean bombing campaign would have concluded as intended. North Korea might have been defeated. The Chinese intervention might have been dramatically slowed down. But .... this might have given McAuthur (sp) more ideas on how to use the A Bomb. Difficult to ponder. The changes in the Koren War would be profound at least. Yikes!

Without the Mig15 in Korean the USAF air force might have abandon dig fighting and relied might more on bombers. This might cause problem in Vietnam war as the new Mig 21 etc with turbofan engines arrive.
 
Without the Mig15 in Korean the USAF air force might have abandon dig fighting and relied might more on bombers. This might cause problem in Vietnam war as the new Mig 21 etc with turbofan engines arrive.
They did that, OTL

USAF fighters were made to toss missiles at Soviet Bombers, not dogfight.

Navy Crusader was notable for it still being an old school dogfighter with 20mm cannons, being replaced by the Phantom II, all missiles.
 
They did that, OTL

USAF fighters were made to toss missiles at Soviet Bombers, not dogfight.

Navy Crusader was notable for it still being an old school dogfighter with 20mm cannons, being replaced by the Phantom II, all missiles.

indeed.
without a successful mig15 dog fighting the people in the UASF who want to end dog fighting will have less opposition.
 
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Agaian, there seem to be a lot of blithe assumptions regarding soviet jet engines of the era. In SSP: Bombers the author says clearly (and this was a surprise even to me) that the VK1 was started BEFORE they ever got any Nenes, intended as a soviet equivalent to it yes, but the VK1 was designed to be more powerful anyway. When they got the Nenes they altered a few relatively minor things on the VK1, but the major components were kept. The main thing they got that was useful was the Nimonic alloy. So in a nutshell without Nenes and Derwents the soviets will accelerate VK1, TR2 etc. and fully concentrate in ironing their bugs. This can well result in a slightly delayed MiG-15 to say 1948 but built as a MiG-15bis, with a VK1 from the start, which is actually worse for the americans.

The downside for the soviets is that perhaps initially at least the VK1 will not have the TBO it had but say half that or something, but it will still be perfectly usable, and it's not like the soviets don't have enough planes to swap around. Perhaps they will also NOT close Sukhoi OKB, which was closely working with Lyulka and his engines (TR1/2/3 etc.) and they might get to built the Su-17 (first use of the designation), rather than cancel it which again is bad for the americans, hell as a soviet wank you can have MiG-17s and Su-17s fighting in Korea in 1952-1953 against the by now badly outclassed F-86.

So yes, in a nutshell you can argue that RD-45 and RD-500 might have set BACK soviet jet engine industry, without them all those resources would be poured into getting VK1 ready earlier than OTL and fixing the TR1/2/3 series issues. Btw TR2 was cancelled in 1947 because of the Nene availability, which perhaps cost Lyulka valuable experience in ironing out issues with his engines.

I have never seen a suggestion that the British Nene did not greatly improve the Jet engine situation for the Russians.

The main thing that the Russians gained (asides from getting robust working engines) was that they learned a great deal from those Nenes and Derwent V's (a mini Nene designed to fit in existing Meteor naccelles) regarding the necessary metalurgy that made the British engines so reliable and these 'learnings' was applied to all Russian jet engine projects of the day.

The subsequant development of the RD45 and RD-500 (copy of the Derwent V) allowed the Russians to 'catch up' to the 1946 Rolls Royce Standards and apply that improved knowledge to the VK1

This was not something that can be learned from grainy photos gleaned by agents and useful fools.

The idea that the Nene / Derwent V sales set back Russian Jet engine development is Hilarious

TR1 2 and 3 were failures and this despite learnings from the British Engines.

Any jet engine in this TL without an ability to improve the materials to the same standard as the RR Engines will result in a worse than OTL Russian Jets over Korea.
 
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