WI No Pope Gregory VII or Urban II

What if, upon the death of Pope Alexander II in 1073, the cardinals in Rome do not select his right hand man, Hildebrand of Sovona, but decide upon selecting somebody more acceptable to Holy Roman Emperor Henry IV (maybe even Guibert of Ravenna, OTL's Antipope)? Point being, none of the "reform" faction holds the position for at least the remainder of the 11th Century.

What changes? For a simple starter, this means no First Crusade, or at least making it less likely. But how else is history changed if we don't see the Gregorian Reforms during this period -- reinforcing clerical celibacy, reforming the calendar, marriage...? And what else of the more immediate political effects -- would this mean, under Henry IV, that the Holy Roman Empire might become more centralized? And what would be the effects of that?

Full disclosure -- I am seeing this as partly being an effect of Godwinson winning at Hastings, and for that matter, as part of a larger TL.
 
What changes?
Not much macrohistoricaly

For a simple starter, this means no First Crusade, or at least making it less likely.
I find that far from obvious.

Crusades were possible thanks to a social/ideological evolution and integration of miles* into a Christian way-of-life : If violence against Christians from a class whom whole legitimacy was based on warfare was frowned upon, the logical outcome for milites, in order to be religiously legitimized, was to use this violence to serve Christians.
Legitimisation of violence, especially from a military-based social class (less nobility as a whole strictly speaking than milites, aka warring nobility), that was in the direct continuation of Truce of God and XIth councils played an important role : it did help that Urban II was issued from this nobility, and most able to speak to them, calling to their own conceptions.

True, the concept of Crusade as we know it could possibly emerge differently, but I don't see any good reason why the simple absence of Urban II would butterfly it except as a "PoD => Random **** happens" equation.

But how else is history changed if we don't see the Gregorian Reforms during this period -- reinforcing clerical celibacy, reforming the calendar, marriage...?
Similarily, I don't see how you would really escape the reforms, even if they wouldn't be called Gregorians.

The re-organisation of the church along Roman lines was not only far from a novelty (altough it certainly carved the face of classical medieval Church), but most of its contents not as much comes from Gregorius' own conception, than being already widespread in episcolap and monastic centers of western Christiendom already. The lesser feudalisation of clergy, for instance, was already well opposed by the Clunisian structures.

The whole program of rejunevation was already carried by Leo IX and Nicolae II, before Gregorius let its mark on it : I don't see a good reason why another candidate would suddenly give up this. You'd argue that the Dictatus was a relativelty radical affirmation of pontifical autonomy and power, and honestly that would be true and the face for the reforms could be significantly changed.

But as much the empire and the italian potentes could push back and modify the most radical elements of the reforms, they couldn't get rid of it. Not only because there was a general push for a rejuvenated church even from aristocracy, but because even the emperor benefited from a better legitimacy for his own authority from a more independent church (more independent church, NOT fully independent church) from aristocracy.

And what else of the more immediate political effects -- would this mean, under Henry IV, that the Holy Roman Empire might become more centralized?
Mostly coping from another thread : the imperial character of medieval Germany and Italy was an issue there. These existed as cultural, political and proto-national ensemble, but the overlording body was the Empire. It led the various strong dynasties to live up to their quasi-universal pretentions if they wanted to legitimize their rule. It led to clashes with Papacy, itself quite bound on universal hegemony, and the various city-states, duchies, etc. that could benefit from the big extension of the Empire (HREmperors could be forced to end a revolt in Italy, mere years after having dealt with Germany) and from pontifical support (HRE, too far from God, too close to the pontiff).
And there's the kicker : while other kings and great nobles didn't THAT feel threatened trough excommunication (they still did a bit, sometimes), HREmperors did. They needed the pontifical aquescit to legitimize their rule as emperors, and excommunication didn't just meant for them that Rome was very, very, disappointed. It meant they were theoritically deprived to their right to rule as emperors, which litterally everyone could use as a pretext to revolt : the strong papacy Ottonian supported at first in order to legitimize their imperial claims became more and more of an hinderance.


Full disclosure -- I am seeing this as partly being an effect of Godwinson winning at Hastings, and for that matter, as part of a larger TL.
I'm not really seeing why. The importance of pontifical influence on the conquest was vastly overrated, if not more or less forged in Modern Times.
 
@LSCatilina Thanks so much for your answer! It sounds like I had been vastly overestimating the importance of Pope Gregory in the history of the Catholic Church; even with a papacy working as more of a partner with the Holy Roman Emperor, rather than sparring with him, the reforms of the church from this period would still have happened.

The only big change then, as far as I can tell, would be that Henry IV isn't as worried about this reforming church undermining his imperial authority, allowing him to bind most of Europe further under his central authority, rather than seeing it fall apart as various princes continue to rebel. A more united *Germany* going into the 12th Century would be fairly interesting in its own right...
 
@LSCatilina Thanks so much for your answer! It sounds like I had been vastly overestimating the importance of Pope Gregory in the history of the Catholic Church;
You didn't (or more the the point, you did a bit but Gregory is an important figure) while I may I wrongly given this impression : Gregory's pontificate was still pretty much decisive historically, a "qualitative leap" if you allow me, from the already existing tendencies. My point was more to not overestimate the role of Rome in the Xth/XIth church, on several matters it was as much on the recieving end of the clerical rejuvenation (from aformentioned episcopal and especially monastic centers; but as well from the Empire) than a center of these reforms.

But Gregory, while he printed his mark onto the historical reforms was more or less a skilled and efficient representent of the Clunisian mindset : it's no accident if most great popes of the XIth century were either French or issued from these monastic centers, as they bathed in this clerical atmosphere of rejuvenation and re-evangelization.

even with a papacy working as more of a partner with the Holy Roman Emperor, rather than sparring with him, the reforms of the church from this period would still have happened.
I don't dispute, of course, that it would have a different face and frame : Middle-Ages are a period where symbolism (to not confuse with superificial) and presentation is important after all. And you did well to mention that you might have changes into pontifical policy (while not really due to the lack of reforms), but I don't think it would be nearly enough to prevent the disputes between the Pope and the Emperor when it come to religious (secular/regular) and imperial authority and legitimacy, not in the long run that is.
 
And you did well to mention that you might have changes into pontifical policy (while not really due to the lack of reforms), but I don't think it would be nearly enough to prevent the disputes between the Pope and the Emperor when it come to religious (secular/regular) and imperial authority and legitimacy, not in the long run that is.
Yeah, even if Henry IV and an alternate pope manage to work well together in an atmosphere of growing reformism, that may well only last as long as they do; best case then, the Investiture Controversy can is kicked down the road, into the 12th Century.
 
It's goal was to relegitimise the Church as a spiritual organisation rather than a "nobilitic" one, not "get lots of faithful".
On that it was fairly successful.
Well, to be honest, it was tied with the evangelisation of medieval society and the general requirement of a moralistic and purer church.
On this regard celibacy was a big thing, as it technically (it never was systematically applied during all the Middle-Ages) prevented the split of ecclesiastical wealth among secular successors. So, as much to reinforce clerical legitimacy and structure, than to put new obstacle to aristocratic takeover of clerical charges (which was at the heart of Clunisian spirit, for exemple, while supported by the local Aquitain aristocracy : such desires were really widespread)
 
If we are kicking the investiture controversy can down the road, giving Henry IV and other monarchs more time before they spar with the papacy over temporal authority matters, does that mean TTL might see the earlier emergence of the centralized proto-state (akin to, say, 1290's France under Phillip the Fair)? And if the showdown between the church and *state* happens when this centralization is further along, does that mean the result is goes less smoothly for the papacy (as OTL, with the Unum Sanctum, Avingon Papacy, etc)?
 
I'm not sure how we can kick down the investiture controversy. It's a deep structural problem that would have great chances to arise without a radical change in pontifical policies.
Of course, it was such a mess that nobody really "won" it IOTL,mostly because a real victory would have implied one of both actors to be irremediably crushed, something out of reach from both the Emperor and the Pope.

Now, we could have HREmperors managing to get a better deal out of a still existing conflict.
A smoother Gregorian reform could do the trick : we could have an Ottonian dynasty survival which would open the possibility of an at least slightly better relationship between Rome and the HRE.
The better if there is an Ottonian equivalent to Henry III appearing ITTL, aka an emperor skilled enough to avoid the plagueing great revolts, and managing to use ecclesiastical power as an ally against lay potentes.

Eventually, allowing *Ottonians to influe on the pontifical election just enough to impose a pope of their liking (while, giving the aformentioned trends, such pope isn't going to be a puppet, and Ottonians might eventually regret their choice); compromising with Italian potentes (lay or clerical) could smoothen the differenciation betwen imperial clergy as imperial managers, and imperial clergy as imperial potentes.

A minor detail : you won't have any kind of centralization with this (unless you meant "unification", that is on imperial feudal grounds). You could end up with clerical potentes forming a more tight ensemble regard to the emperor, instead of possible obstacles; but it wouldn't challenge much the lay potentes (not directly, at the very last) altough by avoiding part of the mess of the Investiture and Sacerdocy crisis, lay potentes might have less opportunities to gain more independence. But, it's important, they would be still there and ready to defend their interests.
 
Is there a reason the Salian Dynasty could not have managed what we're talking about?
I don't see a good reason why, indeed, altough it might be a bit more difficult, giving an apparently more tensed relationship between Salians and Italian nobility after the Ottonian succession crisis.
I think you should have an intervention on pontifical politics at some point in the third quarter of the XIIth century (possibly between Gregory VIII and Innocent III) while the emperor still have significant influence in Italy (maybe trough an unformal alliance with Roman elites, wich seems to have tended to municipal autonomism at this point). It wouldn't be that of a game-changer on several matters, but you might change more or less significantly the frames of "pontifical monarchy" à la Innocent III with more cooperative popes before him.

That said, I'd prefer @Carp to give their opinion there, as they're much more knowledgable about classical medieval Italy than I.
 
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