WI no Pope Gregory I? Rise of national Churches?

When Gregory I became Pope in 590, among his first acts were writing a series of letters disavowing any ambition to the throne of Peter and praising the contemplative life of the monks. At that time the Holy See had not exerted effective leadership in the West since the pontificate of Gelasius I. The episcopacy in Gaul was drawn from the great territorial families, and identified with them: the parochial horizon of Gregory's contemporary, Gregory of Tours, may be considered typical; in Visigothic Spain the Bishops had little contact with Rome; in Italy the papacy was beset by the violent Lombard dukes and the rivalry of the Jews in the Exarchate of Ravenna and in the south. The scholarship and culture of Celtic Christianity had developed utterly unconnected with Rome, and it was from Ireland that Britain and Germany were likely to become Christianised, or so it seemed.
Pope Gregory I revitalised the Church and connected all West under the authority of the Holy See...
WI Gregory I is never elected Pope? Would have West became one Church under the Pope or national churches would rise? Aka Church of Gaul Church of Spain Church of Ireland etc. under their own Primates unconnected with Rome... is this possible? How is this affecting History?
 

Philip

Donor
Don_Giorgio;2486697 WI Gregory I is never elected Pope? Would have West became one Church under the Pope or national churches would rise? Aka Church of Gaul Church of Spain Church of Ireland etc. under their own Primates unconnected with Rome... is this possible?[/quote said:
National churches are certainly possible, but 'unconnected with Rome' seems unlikely. More likely would be the recognition (de jure if not de facto) of the Church of Rome as the First among Equal Churches.
 
National churches are certainly possible, but 'unconnected with Rome' seems unlikely. More likely would be the recognition (de jure if not de facto) of the Church of Rome as the First among Equal Churches.

With National Churches risen by 7th century Christianity would have evolved differently i guess... I can see many more herecies arise in national level and maybe Reformation (in national level too) happens earlier...
 
A very interesting Gregory POD might be that he was allowed to go to England as a missionary as he wanted.

As for what happens if he does not become Pope it is not clear that the notion of papal primacy may evolved in a century or two anyway. Even if a First Among Equals papacy occurs I would see periodic church councils preventing anything more than the slightest wiff of heterodoy. The East/West Schism may be avoided in TTL.
 
A very interesting Gregory POD might be that he was allowed to go to England as a missionary as he wanted.

As for what happens if he does not become Pope it is not clear that the notion of papal primacy may evolved in a century or two anyway. Even if a First Among Equals papacy occurs I would see periodic church councils preventing anything more than the slightest wiff of heterodoy. The East/West Schism may be avoided in TTL.

Maybe Italy sticks with the Emperor in Constantinople if the Pope doesnt claim Western Europe for the Holy See... Or in the other hand a forged "Donatio Constantini" emerges earlier in order to supress the national Churches...
 
With National Churches risen by 7th century Christianity would have evolved differently i guess... I can see many more herecies arise in national level and maybe Reformation (in national level too) happens earlier...

Would it happen earlier though? That assumes that the national churches themselves become corrupt as did the church in OTL. Also it depends on the reaction of the secular authorities and their relationship with the church. The only thing preventing it might be the lack of sizw and power of the church...

Theological reform may well be instigated- I still think errors are going to creep into the church anyway- as they do both East and West.

Two things which may or may not happen are the persecution of groups like the Cathars, Waldensians &c. and possibly the subsuming of Celtic Christianity into the Roman version following the synod of Whitby- there is then not likely to be any doctrinal basis for this to happen (regarding the pre-einence of the bishoos of Rome as the sucessor of Peter). What happens to the Crusades, seeing as there is less of a united front? Or the expansion of Islam?
 
What happens to the Crusades, seeing as there is less of a united front? Or the expansion of Islam?

If Crusades still happen the Pope of Rome could have had a difficult time in persuading different national Churches to join... The same applies if any other national Church which decides to go on a Crusade...
 
Crusades

Crusades could still emerge from a church council. Again I submit that with a weaker papacy we would see periodic councils as the primary mechanism of unity of Christendom.
 
Crusades could still emerge from a church council. Again I submit that with a weaker papacy we would see periodic councils as the primary mechanism of unity of Christendom.

I agree but if u end up with an ambitious Pope in Italy he might try to claim Europe with a forged Donatio Constantini only in this TL this would happen much later than OTL...
 
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