WI: No Polynesian expansion

[Elfwine]

It wouldn't be just like home, but colonists who are willing to live off of manioc could do well in a rainforest. They may end up hunting some of the local birds to extinction to sustain themselves until their harvest is large enough to support them, but it is possible.

Or it's possible they'd fail, because "somewhat similar conditions to home" is not a guarantee of success.

 

[wolf_brother]

Eh...Polynesians did have that sort of environmental impact, but human activity in the Pacific was also compounded by El Nino and local weather conditions. Easter Island might be a lot more forested, but the islands will vary wildly in how 'lush' they are even within archipelagos.

Granted, but anything large enough to become viable on it's own - re; your ideas of native Americans forcibly relocated - or even breakaway settler colonies, would be sites that IOTL are relatively clear for settlement at least in certain locations. That's not going to be that case ITTL.

 

[pa_dutch]

Or it's possible they'd fail, because "somewhat similar conditions to home" is not a guarantee of success.

I agree for the most part, though ultimately I'd think someone would be living in the larger islands by the modern day. There are plenty of islands that were uninhabited when European explorers first visited them that now have thriving human societies - Madiera, the Azores, Cape Verde, Bermuda, South Georgia, St. Helena, the Falklands, Pitcairn, and Norfolk, to name the more significant ones. The temperate and mountainous parts of New Zealand would probably still be settled by Europeans, while the islands with tropical climates might see settlement by indentured labor from India, the Philippines, or Indonesia, perhaps. I could see the Spanish attempting way-stations between the Philippines and New Spain that develop a hybrid culture of Filipino and Central American influences, while the British might send Indians in the same way that they did to Fiji and Guyana.

 

[Elfwine]

I agree for the most part, though ultimately I'd think someone would be living in the larger islands by the modern day. There are plenty of islands that were uninhabited when European explorers first visited them that now have thriving human societies - Madiera, the Azores, Cape Verde, Bermuda, South Georgia, St. Helena, the Falklands, Pitcairn, and Norfolk, to name the more significant ones. The temperate and mountainous parts of New Zealand would probably still be settled by Europeans, while the islands with tropical climates might see settlement by indentured labor from India, the Philippines, or Indonesia, perhaps. I could see the Spanish attempting way-stations between the Philippines and New Spain that develop a hybrid culture of Filipino and Central American influences, while the British might send Indians in the same way that they did to Fiji and Guyana.

I have little doubt that someone in some islands would make it - they're hardly unfit for human life - I'm just objecting to the idea that exiling American natives there will work well for said exiles.

 

[twovultures]

I have little doubt that someone in some islands would make it - they're hardly unfit for human life - I'm just objecting to the idea that exiling American natives there will work well for said exiles.

I said it was the interesting idea, not the likely idea.

pa_dutch is right, indentured Asian settlers creating an Asian/European hybrid colony is much more likely (and has a lot of potential to be interesting as well).

 

[mosodake]

The Polynesian agricultural package was developed on Formosa by austronesians.

Not quite. The agricultural package that was developed in Taiwan was mostly based on millet with some rice and, to a much lesser extent, taro. Bananas were domesticated somewhere in Southeast Asia and taken back to Taiwan probably with the tribes that migrated back. The Polynesians must have picked up bananas and breadfruit as they left Indonesia. Millet seems to have been lost as a staple crop as soon as the Austronesians reached the Philippines with rice becoming the new staple.

 

[DG Valdron]

Happy to be corrected. The point remains that the key plant and animal domestications precede the emergence of Polynesian culture.

 

[Julius Vogel]

It could make the history of Australasia pretty different. The British interest in NZ for one took a long time to turn into serious settlement (50 years or so), during which British, American and other European powers sent traders and whalers up and down the NZ coastline, setting, trading, arming the Maori. The Maori, in turn developed a healthy business supplying the traders/whalers and also the early Australian colonies.

I would imagine that the early settlers/missionaries/etc would have had a much harder time of it without Maori willing to trade or assist. They would need to be supplied and supported from the Australian colonies

 

[Gonzaga]

No Polynesian traders on the Pacific coast of South America means no chickens in South America, and no sweet potatoes in (South) East Asia, which is going to have a huge impact on the civilizations in both regions.

Weren't the bones of chickes discovered in one single site in Chile? IIRC no important civilization or tribal group in South America had chickens before the arrival of the Europeans. It seems that they didn't have such an impact in the continent.

 

[Brady Kj]

I'm curious about what sort of POD could prevent the Polynesians from expanding. I'm not entirely convinced it's possible, or that some other island group wouldn't find a way to these islands eventually.

 

[twovultures]

Weren't the bones of chickes discovered in one single site in Chile? IIRC no important civilization or tribal group in South America had chickens before the arrival of the Europeans. It seems that they didn't have such an impact in the continent.

Honestly, that's one archaeological find I'm skeptical of. It's only one isolated case, and while the radiocarbon dating did pan out that's not fool proof. Two or more sites with chicken bones where the radiocarbon dating showed they were pre-Columbian would be more convincing. The more redundancy in a find, the more believable it is.

But even if these chickens are pre-Columbian, you're right that they didn't have much of an impact.

 

[cerebus]

I'm curious about what sort of POD could prevent the Polynesians from expanding. I'm not entirely convinced it's possible, or that some other island group wouldn't find a way to these islands eventually.

Thats easy, the polynesian expansion is one of those events directly related to a single technological innovation. The ocean going out rigger canoe ( and the associated navigational tools and skills, but I assume the out rigger came first). We just need to make the invention and adoption of the machine less likely. Since we have little to no idea what on drove the development on Taiwan of something unique and original that had not been thought of in the rest of the worl in the preceding 100,000 years I suggest delaying the invention by a few thousand years is not unlikely.

 

[kasumigenx]

The dating of the Polynesian expansion was during the start of the expansion of the chinese civilization which was caused by Rice Farmers displacing Tuber farmers, slowing or stopping the Chinese expansion and the displacement of the rice farming people from Southern China to South East Asia would also make the Polynesians stay in their homeland, not displaced by rice farmers, perhaps we could do this no Polynesian Expansion in a No China TL.

 

[mosodake]

Thats easy, the polynesian expansion is one of those events directly related to a single technological innovation. The ocean going out rigger canoe ( and the associated navigational tools and skills, but I assume the out rigger came first). We just need to make the invention and adoption of the machine less likely. Since we have little to no idea what on drove the development on Taiwan of something unique and original that had not been thought of in the rest of the worl in the preceding 100,000 years I suggest delaying the invention by a few thousand years is not unlikely.

That wouldn't just get rid of the Polynesian expansion. Without the outrigger canoe, the entire Austronesian expansion is eliminated or delayed and the Austronesians would be confined to Taiwan. Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, and Madagascar would be completely unrecognizable. The Champa kingdom wouldn't have developed, and mainland Southeast Asia would be very different as well.

 

[kasumigenx]

That wouldn't just get rid of the Polynesian expansion. Without the outrigger canoe, the entire Austronesian expansion is eliminated or delayed and the Austronesians would be confined to Taiwan. Malaysia, Indonesia, the Philippines, and Madagascar would be completely unrecognizable. The Champa kingdom wouldn't have developed, and mainland Southeast Asia would be very different as well.

I think the Chinese expansion to the south of the Yellow River Valley was a factor in the expansion of the Ancestors of Polynesians at least their early expansions are, I think if the Chinese did not expand, I think there would be less pressure for the Ancestors of Polynesians to expand nor to even invent the outrigger.

 

[pa_dutch]

Weren't the bones of chickes discovered in one single site in Chile? IIRC no important civilization or tribal group in South America had chickens before the arrival of the Europeans. It seems that they didn't have such an impact in the continent.

I've heard speculation that the araucana breed of chickens from Chile might be descended from Polynesian chickens that were introduced to the Mapuche, but even if so that wouldn't have too much effect on Pre-Columbian history. It would really only have an impact on modern chicken breeders.

I think the Chinese expansion to the south of the Yellow River Valley was a factor in the expansion of the Polynesians at least their early expansions are, I think if the Chinese did not expand, I think there would be less pressure for Polynesians to expand nor to even invent the outrigger.

Again, it seems that many people are confusing the Polynesians with the Austronesians. The Austronesians are a much larger, broader linguistic group of which the Polynesians are just a small subset. The Polynesians developed very far away from China and Taiwan, around the Tonga and Samoa islands from which they spread throughout the South Pacific. Austronesians also include most Malaysians, Indonesians, Filipinos, and the Malagasy, as well as the Micronesians and Melanesians.