WI no Operation Market Garden?

There've been a handful of threads on this topic before, but most are from several years ago, so I thought it'd be best to start discussion anew here. Anyway, this thread is rather self-explanatory: what would've happened had men and materiel not been wasted on Market Garden?
 
There've been a handful of threads on this topic before, but most are from several years ago, so I thought it'd be best to start discussion anew here. Anyway, this thread is rather self-explanatory: what would've happened had men and materiel not been wasted on Market Garden?

The front remains stationary for a few months due to logistics then the Allies grind their way forwards into Germany.

Unless of course the Germans try a final western offensive early in which case the allies destroy them and move forward.
 
There've been a handful of threads on this topic before, but most are from several years ago, so I thought it'd be best to start discussion anew here. Anyway, this thread is rather self-explanatory: what would've happened had men and materiel not been wasted on Market Garden?

Start clearing the Scheldt Estuary earlier than OTL and open up Antwerp to supplies.

Divert resources to Patton and watch him get stuck in Alsace Lorraine and then we would be asking "Wouldn't it have been better to give Montgomery's plan a chance?"
 
Start clearing the Scheldt Estuary earlier than OTL and open up Antwerp to supplies.

Divert resources to Patton and watch him get stuck in Alsace Lorraine and then we would be asking "Wouldn't it have been better to give Montgomery's plan a chance?"

Opening Antwerp to supplies would certainly ease logistics. If the Scheldt campaign starts earlier casualties may well be lighter than they were historically.
So assuming these options are taken how would this affect the progress of the campaign.
What kind of opposition would Patton be facing in Alsace-Lorraine?
 
Opening Antwerp to supplies would certainly ease logistics. If the Scheldt campaign starts earlier casualties may well be lighter than they were historically.
So assuming these options are taken how would this affect the progress of the campaign.
What kind of opposition would Patton be facing in Alsace-Lorraine?

Without Market Garden the capture of the Scheldt may have actually taken longer.
 
Options...

Clearing the Scheldt would be a very important gain. On the 5th September much of the 15th Army was still in retreat in Flanders. The portion on Walchern/Beveland had not a lot of time to occupy defense positions, set out communications, stock ammunition, or entrench. Having the Candians advance rapidly to cut off the ferry sites & round out the Germans in Flanders would help. You might take a look at dropping a couple brigades of airborne on the ferry sites to disrupt the 15ht Army further. Were the Brit 30th Corp to advance imeadiatly to the neck and cut off that supply route the problems of the 15th Army are compounded.

I've not seen any convincing arguments Pattons 3rd Army could have got across the Rhine, even with all the fuel and airborne in reach. However the city of Trier was within the grasp of 3rd Army. Capturing that complicates German transportation & logistics across a considerable area. Possiblly even to the point of making a major offensive in the Ardennes impractical. If the 3rd Army can secure enough of the this region then the further advance to the Rhine when the ground freezes is quicker & the possiblity of a earlier crossing of the Rhine can be considered.

A third possibility comes from a little known meeting between Devers (6th Army Grp) & Eisenhower in September 1944. Devers argued for the concentration of supplies & reinforcements in his sector, claiming this would allow him to clear his entire area to the Rhine and then cross. He thought this all could be accomplished by sometime in November. Ike said he would think about it & departed. To provide some background here; the 6th AG did not have the supply problems the 12th & 21st AG had. The super port group of Marsailles/Toulon was swiftly restored & fully operational in September. the railroad net in south France was nearly intact, and a high capacity line led straight north from Marsailles into the 6th AG rear, then on to central France. From mid September supplies were being drawn from 6th AG to help alleviate the problems in 12th AG, and material was sent to ComZ as well. In October a entire corps was temporarily detached from 3rd Army to 7th Army to reflect where its supplies came from.

I have gamed out the 'Devers Option' several times. Against a appropriate German reaction Devers prediction is a bit optimistic, but it was consistently possible to cross the Rhine several months early, in Febuary or even January. If the German decisions are less rational & include things like the Ardennes offensive then the upper Rhine is weakened to the point where a bridgehead is possible in December. Reinforcing the upper Rhine to the point of stopping the 6th AG has a high risk of weakening the overall front to where 12th & 21st AG have opportunities open up during the winter.
 
Anyway, this thread is rather self-explanatory: what would've happened had men and materiel not been wasted on Market Garden?

Key is the airborne forces, as the ground troops were stretched too thin.

If not Market Garden, then a drop on or around Aachen to help US First Army through the Siegfried Line before the German defences thicken up.


To make this work 12th Army Group needs to focus north of the Ardennes and concentrate divsions and logistics to punch through at Aachen.

It woukld help to move the dividing line with 21st Army Group westward to include Brussels. This allows 30th Corps to hook its armoured divions north AND south of the Scheldt and completely trap 15th Army, speeding up the opening of Antwerp.

If the US First Army penetrates at Aachen then a second airborne operations to help bounce the Rhine becomes a possibility.
 
Well the big question here is what were the other options.

Well Patton did blitz his way across France after the breakout at Normandy. What stopped him was fuel being diverted from his thrust, and some of that went to Monty and Market Garden. I'm skeptical that the war would be over by Christmas had Patton gotten the fuel, but it probably would have ended a month, maybe two sooner.

Of course, just driving north enouth to Antwerp would help ease the logistic trains, so I'm not saying give all the fuel to Patton and let him do his Hulk impersonation: "Patton SMASH!"
 
From what I've read over the years, which admittedly probably a lot less than most here the allies main issue was lack of concentration and logistics in the key sectors, it seems once they hit a hard point they would bog down for quite a while until they built up massive forces and firepower to smash the German defenders to pieces.

Without the Arnhem debacle could they concentrate more forces earlier and sweep aside the Germans later in the year?
 

Robert

Banned
Patton receives the logistical support he needs and gets across the Rhine months earlier. The Battle of the Bulge never takes place because the Germans were forced to commit there forces against Patton piecemeal.

VE-Day in March, 1945
 
Well Patton did blitz his way across France after the breakout at Normandy. What stopped him was fuel being diverted from his thrust, and some of that went to Monty and Market Garden. I'm skeptical that the war would be over by Christmas had Patton gotten the fuel, but it probably would have ended a month, maybe two sooner.
I've read that Bradley was already diverting quite a lot of Hodges supplies to Patton. The problem is that the logistical services could not keep the allied armies supplied. Opening up Antwerp would have significantly shortened the supply lines, especially to 21st AG. I thought the length of the supply lines, and the fact that a fair few of the channel ports were destroyed before the Canadians could get there meant that there simply weren't enough supplies getting to the front line, not that one AG was getting preferential treatment.

Of course, the fact that a huge number of British trucks were out of action due to piston problems really didn't help with the logistical problems...
 
There was a "World at War" suggestion that the Nazis in Holland had at one point been so weak that it couldf have been taken just after Brussels fall.

Any truth
 
There was a "World at War" suggestion that the Nazis in Holland had at one point been so weak that it couldf have been taken just after Brussels fall.

Any truth

Well, yeah, before Model's II SS Panzer Corps reinforced the Netherlands garrisons, the outlook was pretty bleak for the Germans.
 

Cook

Banned
Well Patton did blitz his way across France after the breakout at Normandy. What stopped him was fuel being diverted from his thrust, and some of that went to Monty and Market Garden.
Your timing is wrong; Patton, and the entire front, had halted well before Market-Garden was considered.
 
Or "And an hour too long" for the film... [Not my personal opinion but those of my family I dragged down to Brighton to see it.]

Or Gene Hackman's "Polish" accent.
Three more changes to film as a direct result of the battle (or lack thereof).
"Men of Arnhem/Theirs is the Glory" is never made.
Director Terence Young might not go through Arnhem, where he was wounded*. (And if something happens to him ITTL, there could be no James Bond series.)
Audrey Hepburn waits a bit longer for liberation. If something happens to her, films could majorly change.

* It should be noted that Young was co-director on the aforementioned film, and later struck up a friendship with Audrey Hepburn.
 
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