WI: No Operation Barbarossa?

If Hitler had not stabbed Stalin in the back, would Stalin still have fought with the allies? How much more successful would the Western front have been?
 

Deleted member 1487

If Hitler had not stabbed Stalin in the back, would Stalin still have fought with the allies? How much more successful would the Western front have been?

Stalin didn't have allies/loyalty, he had interests; so long as those aligned with Hitler he would haven't done a thing against him, but once it was more profitable to switch sides or act against Hitler on his own he would. Going after Stalin in 1941 probably was the least bad option in a long war given that Germany missed its chance to end the war with Britain in 1940
 
There are possibilities that Stalin was preparing the Soviet Union's Armed Forces to attack Herr Hitler's Eastern Armed Forces probably in early 1942 as they were gearing their forces to upgrade and add more troops into their Soviet Armies facing the German Army Groups stationed among the German Axis / Soviet border....

Not fought with the WAllies...
just fighting the Nazis when one of them plans to launch a sneak attack...
 
Stalin and Hitler had the agreement signed so that they didn't have to go to war: Stalin needs time to rebuild his Soviet (which, basically, he wrecked it himself. Many said he was the one who crack the foundation of USSR), and Hitler wanted to avoid a war on two front.

In other words, Hitler will be busy with Battle of Britain and Operation Sea Lion. In fact, if he wanted to win on British sky, he needs to find a way to neutralize the radar (a team of para can capture a radar station and thus open a hole). In the mean time, he should re-equip his U-boats with better equipment (so that they don't have to surface in order to take air. Stuff like that)...
[not sure about Operation Sea Lion]

In 1941, USSR was still in (another) five-year plan. If there was no war, they can further increase their industrial and agriculture power. Heck, they can play with both sides (just like USA). Best case scenario for USSR, Third Reich will be partially exhausted after these 2 operations, USSR can begin some more agressive convert operations, take in Free France and Free Britain, talk (peacefully) with USA (though the last one is practically impossible)
Though it is only a matter of time before Hitler decided that Slavs is slaves, and attack USSR
 
Germany gets economically weaker and weaker relative to the USSR as time drags on, and if Hitler waits too long he'll never get the chance to fulfil his ideological goals - insofar as he did in OTL.
 
No German invasion of USSR=eventual Soviet offensive against the Reich, probably in 1942 or 43. Stalin thinks of Hitler as his doomed executioner, a much more powerful version of Yagoda or Yezhov, if you will.
 
No German invasion of USSR=eventual Soviet offensive against the Reich, probably in 1942 or 43.

1942 is too early I think, even 1943 really. Stalin would probably just reduce deliveries or demand increasingly extravagant payments to starve the German war economy. Of course, without an Eastern front, Germany is in much stronger position and can stockpile some of those resources.

Stalin doesn't need to do the bulk of the fighting against Germany. His ideal situation is to starve Germany, wait for the US and UK to break the German Army in the west, and only then kick in the door in the east and grab land and industry.
 
Am I the only one seeing the use of nukes in Europe? By 1944 Germany had pretty much already lost and even then Operation Overlord was a massive undertaking so given a Germany with all the resources lost against the USSR I just don't see anything on that level succeeding at that point.
 

TinyTartar

Banned
No German invasion of USSR=eventual Soviet offensive against the Reich, probably in 1942 or 43. Stalin thinks of Hitler as his doomed executioner, a much more powerful version of Yagoda or Yezhov, if you will.

I actually reject this premise. I don't think Stalin would have attacked as long as he was happy with what he was getting from the Nazis. He had a resource customer and a strategic ally. I don't think Stalin would have tried to grab Poland from Hitler. If anything would have flared up between the two, it would have been the issues of Romania and Hungary, who Stalin did plan long term to control, and both were Nazi allies at the time. Stalin might have attacked over that. However, if Churchill should get too nosy about the Soviets, and there was a real risk of this, as he saw Stalin and Hitler as being equally awful (perhaps he was right on a moral level, but not on a strategic one) and wanted to send troops to help the Finns, there is a real chance that Stalin sees the British and Commonwealth as the true threat rather than the Nazis and focuses on them.
 

tenthring

Banned
Absorbing France was a big boost for the Nazi economy, but its still the Nazi economy. That's the ultimate problem. With the blockade they need autarky to make it work in the long run, and they need Russian raw materials to achieve autarky.

Romania is also a big part of the problem. It's their only source of oil, and Stalin was eating chunks out of it.
 
Germany gets economically weaker and weaker relative to the USSR as time drags on, and if Hitler waits too long he'll never get the chance to fulfil his ideological goals - insofar as he did in OTL.

The USSR would never get strong enough to out-compete the economy of all of Europe in order to attack. Eventually the British call off the blockade...it can't last forever, especially if the entirety of the German wareffort is pointed against them.
 
The USSR would never get strong enough to out-compete the economy of all of Europe in order to attack.

It can when that economy is be devastated by overexploitation and blockade.

Eventually the British call off the blockade...it can't last forever, especially if the entirety of the German wareffort is pointed against them.
The US comes into the war in late-41/early-42, after that it is a matter of time until Germany is defeated. The Germans would not have the capacity to break the blockade against the British alone until 1943 (assuming they threw all their resources into it) and breaking the blockade against the British and United States is simply not going to happen..
 
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The USSR would never get strong enough to out-compete the economy of all of Europe in order to attack. Eventually the British call off the blockade...it can't last forever, especially if the entirety of the German wareffort is pointed against them.

You forget this an economy run by the Nazis. Who simply ran the German economy into the ground and only lasted part 1940 because of Soviet aid
 
Nazi economics

You forget this an economy run by the Nazis. Who simply ran the German economy into the ground and only lasted part 1940 because of Soviet aid
I think I agree with this. Nazi Germany ran the European economies and its own in a very inefficient manner. Speer brought some rationality to it from late 1943 (?) but I don't see that it could ever outproduce the USSR alone (especially one whose economy has not been disrupted by invasion) .

:)
 
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