WI: No Northern Crusades

spendabuck

Banned
Note: While this may be a bit implausible, I believe it is plausible enough to go here as opposed to the ASB forum. Please correct me if I am wrong.

What if the Northern Crusades never happened? In case anyone is unaware, the Northern Crusades were a series of wars that largely brought Christianity to northeastern Europe; while they were officially started in 1193 with Pope Celestine III's call, the PoD will be at 1147, with the Wendish Crusade against the Obotrites. Let us assume that the Wendish Crusade and other Crusades against pagans never happen, with the northern Christian powers such as Sweden, Norway, Denmark, and Poland focusing on the Crusades against the Muslims instead. How does a stronger pagan influence affect the history of northeastern Europe? Similarly, how would the Crusades go with more help from the Scandinavian countries and elsewhere in Northern Europe?
 
With or without the Crusades, I can't see, why Poland, the Holy Roman Empire (and vassals such as Saxony, the house of Ascania), Denmark and Sweden wouldn't slowly try to seize, conquer and colonize those lands. The process might be slower than IOTL, and maybe Lithuania wouldn't be the only initially Pagan state to emerge from this outside pressure, but I can't see it not happening at all. It would be similar to the USA deciding not to move West beyond the Mississippi. Moreover as in the HRE it wasn't an entirely top down effort either, ambitious border lords would join with the liege's blessing coming after the fact.
 
More folklore, languages etc survive and you have a lot of little countries from Prussia to the east ala Estonia, Lithuania, Latvia. German doesn't get as far east culturally.

I agree we'll see colonization efforts, but dealing with piecemeal colonization might be easier and several Lithuania style states would probably form creating an effective resistance. Less murderous thuggery typical of Crusader Christization, though probably a Lithuanian style Christization without persecution and just maybe a Pagan survival which would influence romantic movements.

How would romanticism evolve with a working model of European shamanism might be interesting.
 
Well in some remote places in North Germanic regions, the indigenous Norse faith survived for a few centuries past Christianisation but was later subsumed by the 13th Century. Depending on how things would play out in certain regions, their indigenous beliefs of the respective Balt/Slavs could well last into the Modern Day depending on the spread of Christianity through the colonisation efforts. Heck if it survives strong enough in certain areas it could well remain such if it reaches the Reformation period. There was an increased interest by certain academics of the age into the traditional religions of Antiquity brought about by the period. That being said I do believe the Saami in the far north of Europe have kept their indigenous beliefs. For one there would certainly be a vastly stronger East/West divide with a strong emphasis of Russia and Poland being angels amongst demons, well something like that anyway.
 
As Janprimus points out, the 'religious' aspect of it, while important, was generally sustained by more worldly desires: land, booty and (in many cases, esp. Prussians) self-defence against pagan raids. Even without an explicit crusade, attacking pagans must have been easier to justify than attacking Christians.

The question is how conquest would proceed without the call to Crusade. Certainly, especially after the loss of the Holy Land, you might see crusaders and Crusading orders to attempt to 'find a role' for themselves in the Baltic, petitioning rather than waiting for the Pope to authorize such wars.

Without this injection of Crusading manpower, however (which could be massive, such as Ottokar II's mission), it seems unlikely that a fractured Poland would be able to muster enough force to conquer Prussia - and even kings of united Poland OTL had tremendous difficulty getting their nobles to fund/participate in such an act of royal aggrandizement.

Similarly, without a comparatively united and stable crusader entity in Livonia acting as a nexus between Novgorod and the rest of Europe, you might well see a weaker Novgorod which could itself lead to a quicker 'gathering of the Russian lands'.
 
The veneer of Christianity over Heathen practices would be even thinner, but I don't think that Christianity wouldn't penetrate those societies. The Baltic would look more like a lot of Africa in terms of religion--traditional religions expressed with some Islam or Christianity on top.

Well in some remote places in North Germanic regions, the indigenous Norse faith survived for a few centuries past Christianisation but was later subsumed by the 13th Century. Depending on how things would play out in certain regions, their indigenous beliefs of the respective Balt/Slavs could well last into the Modern Day depending on the spread of Christianity through the colonisation efforts. Heck if it survives strong enough in certain areas it could well remain such if it reaches the Reformation period. There was an increased interest by certain academics of the age into the traditional religions of Antiquity brought about by the period. That being said I do believe the Saami in the far north of Europe have kept their indigenous beliefs. For one there would certainly be a vastly stronger East/West divide with a strong emphasis of Russia and Poland being angels amongst demons, well something like that anyway.

I thought the Sami nowadays were Christian since the 18th/19th century?
 
The Saami still keep certain aspects of shamanism even today. I am not sure about the numbers, if any, of practicioners nowadays. I would imagine that if you go further north that there is a possibility of its survival. If I am not mistaken, there are still groups who practice pagan religions in Siberia and that area is quite remote as well.
 

spendabuck

Banned
So if there was still gradual (but slower) expansion into northeastern Europe (which I agree would happen eventually), would there still be room for religious syncretism between Christianity and the various pagan religions?
 
The question must be asked.

If it is so convenient for the Northern Christian states and the Papacy to have a crusade declared against the Northern Pagans, why would they not want a crusade declared? I mean there's already precedent. There's a crusade against the Muslims in Spain, in the Holy Land. So it is logical to apply them to the Northeast.

So why would be there be no crusades declared? The only reason I could think of is that the Baltic states all convert to Christianity on their own and thus, removing a reason for calling a crusade.

So here's the POD.

The Baltic Pagans convert to Christianity. There. No crusades to the North.
 
Yes there would be syncretism between Christianity and the various "pagan" religions. This occurred otl in Ireland and throughout the New World where many of the gods become praised as saints.
 
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