WI: No MP44/STG44

We've already said that the AK can be butterflied away. We've also determined that there are several alternatives to the AK that can easily replace it. I've only proven that the Soviet adopting an AR wasn't reliant on german stamping tech. Said tech also did not originate in the MP44 that honor goes to the MG-42 which is still there no? So the soviet still have the stamping technology to adopt into small arms design.

I'm not quite sure what point you are trying to make here anymore?

The point I'm making is there would be no Soviet Assault weapon without contact with the STG44 during WW2, same as there would be no M16 without American contact equipped during Vietnam. MG 42, sure, but not the gas system in the stg 44. That is beside the point anway.
 
You seem to have a very peculiar vision of weapon development when the Soviets had independently started multiple versions of prototype assault rifles, were known historically to make better quality weapons than Germany and did not use the Stg internals for the AK. The Soviets would have made an excellent assault rifle, Stg or not. The Stg is far, far less influential than what one would think watching the History channel.

I've made the point earlier. Be less patronizing if you want a more direct answer.
 
The point I'm making is there would be no Soviet Assault weapon without contact with the STG44 during WW2,

But we've already determined that the soviets wanted an intermediate AR type weapon before the STG saw widespread adoption that wasn't reliant on the stg and that there were many alternatives to the AK that would lead down the same basic path that the AK led to.

I'm sorry but you'll need to come up with an earlier POD for this to work.
 
But we've already determined that the soviets wanted an intermediate AR type weapon before the STG saw widespread adoption that wasn't reliant on the stg and that there were many alternatives to the AK that would lead down the same basic path that the AK led to.

I'm sorry but you'll need to come up with an earlier POD for this to work.

No, we haven't determined that. the MP44 was developed in 1942 and put into service in 1943. The prototype AS44 was designed in 1944 and only tested in 1945.
 
No, we haven't determined that. the MP44 was developed in 1942 and put into service in 1943. The prototype AS44 was designed in 1944 and only tested in 1945.

But there is nothing suggesting that the soviets used the STG to come up with the basic design requirements.
 
Yes there is. It's a little thing called the Eastern Front.

But the MKb42(h) only entered service in miniscule numbers at the same time the soviets were setting up their specifications for an intermediate cartridge for their new main service rifle and came up with widely known prototypes around the concept that were not influenced by the stg-44 but still identical in practice.
 
But the MKb42(h) only entered service in miniscule numbers at the same time the soviets were setting up their specifications for an intermediate cartridge for their new main service rifle.

The Soviets captured an MP44 and demonstrated it before asking for a competition of prototypes. It is an inspiration for it. This is like saying the later US fighters, like the Hell Cat during WW2 had nothing to do with the Japanese Zero, or the F-86 and Mig-15 had nothing to do with the ME 262.
 
The Soviets captured an MP44 and demonstrated it before asking for a competition of prototypes.

But so was the M1 carbine which proved equally influential on the decision to adopt this sort of rifle design concept, Indeed many argue that the M1 carbine beat the MP44 to being the first type of assault rifle adopted.
 
Not according to the communist sources.

They did however issue the specifications for a intermediate round after being impressed by it and the SKS bears a heavy similarity towards it in terms of basic design. Although the M1 was arguably closer to the Mp44 than the SKS.

Soviet sources are also extremely muddled when it comes to the development of the AK. There is even a lot of contention about how much can be credited to Kalashnikov himself.
 
They did however issue the specifications for a intermediate round after being impressed by it and the SKS bears a heavy similarity towards it in terms of basic design. Although the M1 was arguably closer to the Mp44 than the SKS.

Soviet sources are also extremely muddled when it comes to the development of the AK. There is even a lot of contention about how much can be credited to Kalashnikov himself.

Then you have absolutely nothing to add to the conversation.
 
Keep telling yourself that, buddy. I've explained plenty, but keep living in your lala land.
You’ve explained pretty... much nothing, the core of your so-called argumentation being, when the fancy wording is removed, the similar time period of the development of both weapons, when all engineering shows that this is a case of parallel development to solve a similar problem perceived in infantry combat. What you do, however, is to react aggressively and dismiss everyone who disagrees with your perception.
 
Kick
You’ve explained pretty... much nothing, the core of your so-called argumentation being, when the fancy wording is removed, the similar time period of the development of both weapons, when all engineering shows that this is a case of parallel development to solve a similar problem perceived in infantry combat. What you do, however, is to react aggressively and dismiss everyone who disagrees with your perception.


Can you read? They were not developed at the same time (at least not prototypes). The Soviets tested the STG 44 before starting their prototype program.

Oh, did I hurt the internet tough guy's little feelings? Don't play innocent, you're the one who was being insulting in the first place.
 
The point I'm making is there would be no Soviet Assault weapon without contact with the STG44 during WW2, same as there would be no M16 without American contact equipped during Vietnam. MG 42, sure, but not the gas system in the stg 44. That is beside the point anway.

There absolutely would. In 1942 the Soviets started to massively increase the proportion of Sub-Machine guns in their TOE's as cheap automatic firepower to match the German MP40-MG34 combination and at pretty much exactly the same point they strated looking for a longer range intermediate cartridge design. As others have said they went through a wide variety of prototypes some of which were more or less influenced in layout and design by the StG44. But unless you butterfly away them encountering the MP40-MG42 combo they are going to adopt submachine guns, they are going to start looking for a longer range, more powerful submachine gun and they are going to be working towards automatic intermediate cartridge firing assault weapon aka an assault rifle.

Now if you kill off the StG44 and Kalashnikov you might see the stereotypical assault rifle be a bullpup or with a different layout from the AR-15/AK but it would be an assault rifle.
 
Top