WI: No MP44/STG44

The MP 44, or Sturmgewehr (assault rifle) is considered to be the first military production "assault rifle" with an intermediate cartridge. Although not a complete copy, the Soviets took some inspiration from it when they developed the AK47. It's reported that Hitler didn't much care for the stamped metal design of the weapon. So what if Hitler, for whatever reason, decides to put the kibosh on the MP44? How does this affect future rifle designs? The US stuck with full power rifle cartridges all the way up until the early stages of Vietnam, long after the Soviets. Would there be a Soviet intermediate cartridge rifle? Would the M16, or something similar ever exist?
 
Not much, Soviets were already well aware of the intermediate cartridge concept from factory inspections from 1940 and adopted their own in 1943 before the stg saw widespread adoption. The intention was always to have this be the new main infantry and machinegun round (again, before the germans had fully started to field the thing) at that point the path from the SKS to something more practical is inevitable.
 
Not much, Soviets were already well aware of the intermediate cartridge concept from factory inspections from 1940 and adopted their own in 1943 before the stg saw widespread adoption. The intention was always to have this be the new main infantry and machinegun round (again, before the germans had fully started to field the thing) at that point the path from the SKS to something more practical is inevitable.

The 7.26x39mm round was in development in the Soviet Union since 1943, yes, but that was going to be used in the SKS. The AK 47 was inspired by the STG 44, so the doctrine of infantry combat would still be affected by its absence. Not all things are inevitable. Some designs stay around for long periods of time, even if they should be replaced by something better.
 
The 7.26x39mm round was in development in the Soviet Union since 1943, yes, but that was going to be used in the SKS. The AK 47 was inspired by the STG 44, so the doctrine of infantry combat would still be affected by its absence. Not all things are inevitable. Some designs stay around for long periods of time, even if they should be replaced by something better.

Actually the round was first used in the RPD, not the SKS. SKS is by all intents and purposes an intermediate assault rifle with a very short magazine and it will soon be discovered that this concept can be improved upon and optimized. Proliferation and success of 7.62x39 in combat validates the intermediate round for general purpose as a concept and you then get a downscaled rifle akin to the AR-15 in the US around vietnam.

It will butterfly away the AK series but a similar design will rear its head soon enough. This design will then be refined over a decade or so just like the original AK and M-16 until its wide proliferation that comes as a result of it being adopted by a superpower ensures it the same legendary reputation.
 
Actually the round was first used in the RPD, not the SKS. SKS is by all intents and purposes an intermediate assault rifle with a very short magazine and it will soon be discovered that this concept can be improved upon and optimized. Proliferation and success of 7.62x39 in combat validates the intermediate round for general purpose as a concept and you then get a downscaled rifle akin to the AR-15 in the US around vietnam.

It will butterfly away the AK series but a similar design will rear its head soon enough. This design will then be refined over a decade or so just like the original AK and M-16 until its wide proliferation that comes as a result of it being adopted by a superpower ensures it the same legendary reputation.

It being "improved and optimized" is not a given. Like I said in my original comment, the M16 wasn't adopted until the early stages of Vietnam. Hell, Stoner had other designs that were rejected pretty much outright. Such a rifle would not have likely come into existence without the AK47. Even a comparable weapon could be put off for decades without the original German development. "Soon enough" isn't really an answer. Technology isn't deterministic like that.
 
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It being "improved and optimized" is not a given.

Except it is. Its the case with every rifle adopted by a superpower. First concept is iffy like the original AK and M16 but 15 years of refinement results in a design that will get the job done and be astoundingly popular due to widespread proliferation. Its a clear undisputed trend in post-war small arms design.

The clincher is the widespread adoption of an intermediate cartridge by a superpower. After that its a matter of finding an action for it and small arms technology is a completely exhausted field by the 50s so its not a matter of technology. There are no new design ideas its just a matter of adopting existing ones.

The AK, STG 44 and M16 were not revolutionary or innovative in any way technologically except for the cartridge they used.
 
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Except it is. Its the case with every rifle adopted by a superpower. First concept is iffy like the original AK and M16 but 15 years of refinement results in a design that will get the job done and be astoundingly popular due to widespread proliferation. Its a clear undisputed trend in post-war small arms design.

The clincher is the widespread adoption of an intermediate cartridge by a superpower. After that its a matter of finding an action for it and small arms technology is a completely exhausted field by the 50s so its not a matter of technology. There are no new design ideas its just a matter of adopting existing ones.


Ideas take time to implement, and they're not inevitable within a short period of time. The US did NOT accept the intermediate cartridge until long after WW2. How many times do I have to bring up the M14? Also, technology isn't the fast track we think it is these days, the bolt action took 50 years for it to be accepted in the US.

New military ideas are decided by governments, governments are run by people who head bureaucracies, which can further complicate things. If they were run by robots, the Civil War would have only been fought with Spencer and Henry Rifles because they were the newest thing.
 
But the same people who worked on the MP44 will still be around and massively influence the post war small arms development in the same way and still push heavily for an intermediate cartridge in the west. The UK will come to the same conclusions, Belgians will come to the same conclusions, CETME designers will keep doing their thing and this will lead to the same influences on the US as per OTL who will still hear of the effectiveness of the SKS and RPD in combat to the same degree as the AK did. The end result is still that not a whole lot changes.
 
But the same people who worked on the MP44 will still be around and massively influence the post war small arms development in the same way and still push heavily for an intermediate cartridge in the west. The UK will come to the same conclusions, Belgians will come to the same conclusions, CETME designers will keep doing their thing and this will lead to the same influences on the US as per OTL who will still hear of the effectiveness of the SKS and RPD in combat to the same degree as the AK did. The end result is still that not a whole lot changes.

Again, if that were the case, then the US would not have ended up with a non intermediate cartridge, non "assault rifle" until early Vietnam. Gun development isn't magic, gun developers aren't dictators. Stoner couldn't bulldoze his weapon designs through the pentagon. If you're just going to say everything's deterministic and settled, then you have very little to add to the conversation.
 
Again, if that were the case, then the US would not have ended up with a non intermediate cartridge, non "assault rifle" until early Vietnam. Gun development isn't magic, gun developers aren't dictators. Stoner couldn't bulldoze his weapon designs through the pentagon. If you're just going to say everything's deterministic and settled, then you have very little to add to the conversation.

But to change something you have to change something enough to make a difference and you haven't changed the adoption of an intermediate cartridge in the USSR which will lead to a replacement of the SKS which from the start was always considered an intermediate design that would have to be replaced with something that will look a lot like an AK and you have not changed post war developments in the west which is what kicks of the concept there. So now you have to provide an argument as to why the assault rifle trend is stopped with the cancellation but not removal from existance of the MP44, which you have not done.
 
But to change something you have to change something enough to make a difference and you haven't changed the adoption of an intermediate cartridge in the USSR which will lead to a replacement of the SKS which was always considered an intermediate design and you have not changed post war developments in the west which is what kicks of the concept. So now you have to provide an argument as to why the assault rifle trend is stopped, which you have not done.

That does NOT lead to an immediate replacement of the SKS, which was already adopted for that round. Read the first post, the AK47 was inspired by the STG 44. This snowballed into the the M16, which took much longer to develop. You are just not accepting that things can be different from OTL.

I'm going to say this one more time before hitting the ignore on you, just because a technology is adopted by one country DOES NOT mean that it is automatically adopted by another. Like I said before, the US did not adopt the bolt action for 50 YEARS after it was adopted. A military is run by people, there are doctrines in place. These do not change over night. the high powered cartridge was in place for a reason, the US didn't let go of that overnight. Nor would the Soviets have figured out the German's now non existent assault rifle doctrine without the STG 44.
 
That does NOT lead to an immediate replacement of the SKS,
Alexey-Sudayevs-AS-44-AKs-Contender-in-Trials-1.jpg


This is the AS-44, an earlier design made by the guy who made the PPS43 and one of the main competitors of the AK which wasn't influenced by the STG (and ended up being a bigger influence on the AK than the STG itself). End result? this becomes the timelines AK.
 
Alexey-Sudayevs-AS-44-AKs-Contender-in-Trials-1.jpg


This is the AS-44, an earlier design made by the guy who made the PPS43 and one of the main competitors of the AK which wasn't influenced by the STG (and ended up being a bigger influence on the AK than the STG itself). End result? this becomes the timelines AK.

That is not the end result. The AS44 was only a prototype weapon produced in 1945. It's not the same as a widely produced gun like the AK. It's more comparable to something like experimental automatic pistols before the Borchardt. Maybe something could be looked back on, or inspired from the AS44 at a later date.
 
That is not the end result. The AS44 was only a prototype weapon produced in 1945. It's not the same as a widely produced gun like the AK. It's more comparable to something like experimental automatic pistols before the Borchardt. Maybe something could be looked back on, or inspired from the AS44 at a later date.

In 1945-47 the AK was also a prototype that does not particularly resemble the thing we see today and was a decade away from anything resembling a finished mass-producable product. The concept was there and it was influential and there were 10 other manufacturers working on a similar problem. End result is still that the soviets end up with a magazine fed intermediate carbine seen as a clear improvement over the SKS that is refined over a decade or so to become something like the AKM.
 
In 1945-47 the AK was also a prototype that does not particularly resemble the thing we see today and was a decade away from anything resembling a finished mass-producable product.


Your point being? I was saying that it was merely a prototype that didn't go into production Like lots of other service rifles that have prototypes, but are never put into production. Hence why I compared it to pre-Borchardt pistols. I guess in this case, the British EM2 would be a better comparison.
 
I do remember the myth of the Stg 44 inspiring the AK-47 being debunked by looking at the internal mechanism of both weapons, which are massively different - making the Soviet weapon infinitely more reliable than the German one which, as frequently with German weapons, was unreliable. *looks harshly at G36 or, worse, G11*
 
Your point being? I was saying that it was merely a prototype that didn't go into production

Point is that this did not see further development because the AK largely replaced any need for further developing it. The specifications of what the soviets wanted were largely set on a clear improvement of the SKS with a larger box magazine as an improvement on the machine pistol and several designers had designs that fit just fine into this, it was just a matter of picking one, there are no superior competing design layouts that differ from the AR layout and thus its inevitable that the soviets will adopt a rifle largely similar in function to the AK. The AK just happened to be the rifle that fit best at the time.
 
I do remember the myth of the Stg 44 inspiring the AK-47 being debunked by looking at the internal mechanism of both weapons, which are massively different - making the Soviet weapon infinitely more reliable than the German one which, as frequently with German weapons, was unreliable. *looks harshly at G36 or, worse, G11*


It's not a direct copy, but the inspiration is still there in its application. A closer derivative would be the HK G3.
 
Point is that this did not see further development because the AK largely replaced any need for further developing it. The specifications of what the soviets wanted were largely set on a clear improvement of the SKS with a larger box magazine as an improvement on the machine pistol and several designers had designs that fit just fine into this, it was just a matter of picking one, there are no superior competing design layouts that differ from the AR layout and thus its inevitable that the soviets will adopt a rifle largely similar in function to the AK. The AK just happened to be the rifle that fit best at the time.


And my point is the AK would not exist without the MP44.

Edit: partially misread the reply. It did not continue development because Sudayeva died before anything else could take place.
 
And my point is the AK would not exist without the MP44.

And my point is that the AK was not unique in its trial and something identical in function but not inspired by the MP44 would have been adopted since the soviets had already decided the tactical role they wanted the 7.62x39 to fill and the AR pattern is the logical plateu for that line of thought. It would then be refined over a decade into something like the AKM and be just as insanely popular. In the west the small arms development largely remains the identical as the same people are still around doing the same things.
 
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