WI: No Molotov-Ribbentrop

I think the recent historiography of the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact has established that while the USSR was negotiating in bad faith - it had less than friendly intentions toward Poland and the Baltics and intended to convince the UK/France to countenance its schemes in exchange for military cooperation - there was a possibility that its support could be obtained by the UK/France with a bit more diplomatic wrangling. A more favorable response to Molotov on concretely defining "indirect aggression" by Germany against the Baltics and Finland in July (Which France supported) followed by the speedy arrival by plane of their delegations to discuss a military convention (With authority to discuss political topics) could tip the balance. Poland would still refuse to allow Soviet troops on its soil in late August, but productive negotiations on a military convention (Specifying mobilization of all parties in the event of war) could have led the USSR to hold off an signing a concrete agreement with Hitler on the 24th.

If the UK's defense agreement with Poland is delayed by a day until August 26th, Hitler invades at 4:00 AM that morning as he had decided on August 12th. The UK and France issue an ultimatum to Germany to withdraw from Poland on August 29th, and after Hitler rejects this ultimatum the two declare war.

The USSR is caught in a diplomatic mess, having failed to negotiate a concrete agreement with either party and run the clock out with its shenanigans. Under Anglo-French pressure, it begins mobilization on August 28th under MP-22 but refuses to declare war without Polish permission to enter their territory and guarantees that its Baltic interests will be secured. The Poles refuse to accept this stipulation until September 16, with Warsaw surrounded and the Polish armed forces in shambles. Molotov issues a warning to Ambassador Schulenberg on September 10 that the continued presence of German forces on Polish territory of Soviet "national interest" (East of the Curzon Line) would be interpreted as a "hostile act". Hitler rejects the warning as a bluff later that day.

The USSR continues military coordination with France and the UK, and is displeased that the UK has only 6 divisions to immediately deploy to the continent in support of France's 100. After Hitler rejects Molotov's ultimatum, Voroshilov formally inquiries about Anglo-Soviet-French coordination on offensive operations should the USSR enter the war within the next 10 days. The French begin the Saar Offensive on September 12 with probing attacks, with the promise to expand the offensive should the USSR enter the war.

Soviet forces enter Poland at 6:00 AM on September 18. Molotov calls Ambassador Schulenberg to his office to formally issue the Soviet declaration of war at 7:20 AM.

MP-22 calls for the mobilization of 173 rifle divisions, 29 cavalry divisions, 4 mechanized corps, and 40 tank brigades, out of 84 peacetime divisions, 24 cavalry divisions, 4 mechanized corps, and 20 tank brigades. In wartime 29 rifle divisions would be deployed in the Far East, 2 divisions in Central Asia, 29 divisions in the middle of the country (Siberia, Urals, Volga MDs), 16 divisions in the Caucasus, 42 divisions in Ukraine, 8 at the Romanian border, 31 in the "middle direction" (Moscow + Belarus), and 17 in the Leningrad MD.

I believe the RKKA would take a cautious approach and not immediately remove its divisions in Central Asia, the Far East, Caucasus, and bordering Romania/Finland. This leaves it with 73 divisions able to immediately mobilize and cross the border and 29 reserves from the Volga/Urals/Siberia deploying in late September. More units may peel off from other fronts as-needed throughout Autumn.

The Germans will have 66 divisions, 10 of which will be besieging Warsaw and an indeterminate number mopping up various pockets. The German 10th and 14th Armies, 37 divisions, will fight the Ukrainian Front and perhaps 300,000 Poles in various units in Southeastern Poland. 4th and the majority of 3rd Army, 17 divisions, will fight the Belorussian Front. Ukrainian Front has a many good roads leading to Lviv and the Rivne-Lublin road which dictate how the fighting will start, while Belorussian Front is in a much more austere theater with fewer good roads aside from the Minsk-Brest and Minsk-Bialystok routes.

General pros and cons for both sides:

1. Armaments - Soviets lack modern tanks, but German's are pre-modern as well. The Germans got good knockouts with organic infantry AT guns in 1941 anyway, so the likely outcome in my mind is both sides bleed off AFVs rapidly (Germans lost 1/5 of their tanks permanently to the Polish campaign) no matter who wins the initial fight. The USSR is qualitatively behind on aircraft. For munitions, the RKKA has about 900 rounds per/gun, similar to the 1941 campaign. German industry won't really kick off ammunition production until early 1940, so while the RKKA starts off at a disadvantage it has the potential to close the gap if production ramps up similar to OTL (30% increase in munitions production from June-July 1941).

2. Technology - The Red Army is distinctly behind here. Poor optics, heftier radios, and no built-in radios for AFVs. All of these combine to give the German Army a substantial force multiplier, as it possessed in 1941.

3. Tactical Skill - This is the hardest section to evaluate, simply because the contexts are very different from 1941 (Half-mobilized transitory army vs German Army at its peak). Soviet tactical abilities are poor, which will lead to inevitable defeat in their initial engagements. But space to mobilize and no imminent threat of invasion and total destruction will give it a learning curve similar to the Winter War with Finland - initial failure and gradual tactical improvement.

4. The wider context - Germany has just finished fighting Poland, with 1,200-1,400 of its AFVs inactive due to combat or mechanical failure. Stocks of fuel and ammo are also low after the month's fighting, and the supply system is struggling to keep its forces moving. As noted above, Germany can defeat the USSR's initial attacks . But its unlikely it can fully expel it from Poland (Beyond the Neman, Styr, and Seret), much less invade Soviet territory. How events develop from the initial battles of September-October 1939 onward are the most interesting factors.

By October 15 the German Army has defeated the Red Army at Grodno and along the Ternopil-Lviv/Rivne-Lublin highways. The Red Army has been driven back to Eastern/Northeastern Poland to consolidate and reinforce, with the remnants of the Polish Army in the Southeastern portion of the country.

How do things proceed from here? Does the French Saar Offensive continue to build up steam in coordination with Soviet efforts? Is German industry able to deliver the additional munitions needed despite the additional strain? Is the Red Army able to tie up enough German troops to prevent them from shifting 100 divisions West to deliver a decisive blow against France in the spring (Germany has 147 divisions mobilized from 1939-1940)? If it is able to attack in strength, does it deliver a crippling blow as IOTL 1940 or merely a serious attack as in 1914? Here's an interesting question, is Germany able to mobilize an anti-Soviet coalition (Finland, the Baltics, Romania, etc.) to even the Eastern Front material balance?

Much to think about. Germany has the material for a 2-3 year war even with a stalemate, so even in the best case scenario for the Entente 2.0 it won't be a fun war.
 
Much to think about. Germany has the material for a 2-3 year war even with a stalemate, so even in the best case scenario for the Entente 2.0 it won't be a fun war.
Why do you say the Germans had resources for 2-3 years war? I have serious doubts about that. E.g. I believe Germany would have had enormous problems with oil. They would have had no supplies from Romania : Romania had a pact with Poland and USSR and Allies together would surely pressured Romania to deny Germany any oil from Ploesti. IOTL the Soviets provided Gerany with oil, food and many other raw resources until 1941. ITTL Germany is practically cut off from the rest of the world, with possible small gap in blockade being Italy. However I do not think Italy is able to provide Germany with all they need, especially oil. Add to that iron ores, rubber etc. And remember, German losses are higher, both in men and equipment (and did I mentioned OIL?), since they need to fight the Soviets.
So while Germany should be able to mobilize additional men, they will have enormous problems with equipment and arms for them. Those new divisisons, if they are created at all, will be very weak indeed. And there will be no new armoured divisions either: no oil for them. Any offensive against the French will be highly doubtful. Germany must wait until spring 1940 to attack France (weather) and that gives the Soviets time to fully mobilize their enormous and mostly intact industry. And even if Germany attacks in 1940, will the Panzers and Luftwaffe have enough fuel to achieve much? I do not think so.
So in late 1939 ITTL Germany has much less resources and many more enemies: Britain and France completely intact in the West; USSR in the east and add to that remains of the Polish Army. Sure, the Red Army sucks big time, but also Wehrmacht is not in its top form - they lack the experience they gained in France. Germany is pretty much surrounded and isolated, no sane politician in Europe will dare to join Hitler against combined might of Britain, France and USSR, so no allies. I do not think Mussolini will be foolish enough to do more than secretly help Germans with buying some war materials, but it will be a drop in a sea.
IMO Germany is screwed big time. I predict a coup in a few months.
 

nbcman

Donor
Why do you say the Germans had resources for 2-3 years war? I have serious doubts about that. E.g. I believe Germany would have had enormous problems with oil. They would have had no supplies from Romania : Romania had a pact with Poland and USSR and Allies together would surely pressured Romania to deny Germany any oil from Ploesti. IOTL the Soviets provided Gerany with oil, food and many other raw resources until 1941. ITTL Germany is practically cut off from the rest of the world, with possible small gap in blockade being Italy. However I do not think Italy is able to provide Germany with all they need, especially oil. Add to that iron ores, rubber etc. And remember, German losses are higher, both in men and equipment (and did I mentioned OIL?), since they need to fight the Soviets.
So while Germany should be able to mobilize additional men, they will have enormous problems with equipment and arms for them. Those new divisisons, if they are created at all, will be very weak indeed. And there will be no new armoured divisions either: no oil for them. Any offensive against the French will be highly doubtful. Germany must wait until spring 1940 to attack France (weather) and that gives the Soviets time to fully mobilize their enormous and mostly intact industry. And even if Germany attacks in 1940, will the Panzers and Luftwaffe have enough fuel to achieve much? I do not think so.
So in late 1939 ITTL Germany has much less resources and many more enemies: Britain and France completely intact in the West; USSR in the east and add to that remains of the Polish Army. Sure, the Red Army sucks big time, but also Wehrmacht is not in its top form - they lack the experience they gained in France. Germany is pretty much surrounded and isolated, no sane politician in Europe will dare to join Hitler against combined might of Britain, France and USSR, so no allies. I do not think Mussolini will be foolish enough to do more than secretly help Germans with buying some war materials, but it will be a drop in a sea.
IMO Germany is screwed big time. I predict a coup in a few months.
The Germans would have problems with oil, food and other resources if they didn't capture the resource stocks and production in the West in addition to the Nazi-Soviet commercial trade agreements. In fact, the Germans would have ran out of food if they didn't have the Soviet Trade before June 1941 IOTL:

Tot USSR
imports
June 1941
German Stocks
June 1941 (w/o
USSR imports)
Oct 1941
German Stocks
Oct 1941 (w/o
USSR imports)
9121350438905-7
18.813.8-4.912.1-6.7
189.520515.5170-19.5
1637.11381-256.1761-876.1
*German stocks in thousands of tons (with and without USSR imports-Oct 1941 aggregate)

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germa...aced at the disposal,period from 1940 to 1943.

Germany is profoundly screwed in this scenario and would get starved of resources pretty quickly.
 

Deleted member 94680

IMO Germany is screwed big time. I predict a coup in a few months.
I agree with everything else you’ve written (resources!) but would there be a coup so quickly when the Soviets are in the fight?
 
I agree with everything else you’ve written (resources!) but would there be a coup so quickly when the Soviets are in the fight?
Perhaps especially so. Soviet direct threat and Germany's imminent collapse means that the anti-Nazi opposition needs to act quickly and to make deal with the Allies, as long as they still have some cards to play. If, or rather when German economy breaks down and the army is deprived of supplies nothing would stop the Soviets in the east. A last resort would be to send all still combat capable forces to the east and open clear way to the Allies all the way to Berlin or even Warsaw, just to avoid the Soviet occupation.
But with Hitler in charge it is impossible.
 
Unless you bring in Hitler insanity, which in September 1939, before the 1940-1 military successes would just produce a coup removing Hitler anyway, you really have to work to get Germany in a war with the USSR, UK, and France at the same time.

Even in August 1914, Germany at least entered the war with an ally and better prepared, and even then they made some efforts to avoid the war. In August 1939, Germany will not declare war on Poland, unless you pile on everything going wrong diplomatically for the Germans like in a bad sitcom plot where every events humiliates the protagonist, or the USSR and either/ both Britain and France decide beforehand to take the Nazi regime out and conspire to start the war. And the former situation just gets the coup or the foreign minister executed and the Germans making every effort to get out of the situation.

The German government will approach either Britain/ France or the USSR to get a free hand with Poland. IOTL they got the agreement with the USSR. If they get an arrangement with Britain/ France, and are comfortable enough with it to take on the USSR first (they would need economic support, similar to what they got from the USSR against Britain/ France IOTL), that itself is an interesting POD. If they can't get either, you get a lot of bluff, and then they approach the Italians to intervene diplomatically so they can climb down.
 
Unless you bring in Hitler insanity, which in September 1939, before the 1940-1 military successes would just produce a coup removing Hitler anyway, you really have to work to get Germany in a war with the USSR, UK, and France at the same time.

Even in August 1914, Germany at least entered the war with an ally and better prepared, and even then they made some efforts to avoid the war. In August 1939, Germany will not declare war on Poland, unless you pile on everything going wrong diplomatically for the Germans like in a bad sitcom plot where every events humiliates the protagonist, or the USSR and either/ both Britain and France decide beforehand to take the Nazi regime out and conspire to start the war. And the former situation just gets the coup or the foreign minister executed and the Germans making every effort to get out of the situation.

The German government will approach either Britain/ France or the USSR to get a free hand with Poland. IOTL they got the agreement with the USSR. If they get an arrangement with Britain/ France, and are comfortable enough with it to take on the USSR first (they would need economic support, similar to what they got from the USSR against Britain/ France IOTL), that itself is an interesting POD. If they can't get either, you get a lot of bluff, and then they approach the Italians to intervene diplomatically so they can climb down.
Hitler had set the invasion date of August 26th at the beginning of that month, when the Pact was very much uncertain. Even when the USSR delayed signing for several days, Hitler didn't change the August 26th invasion date. The only reason he postponed the invasion was because of the August 25th Anglo-Polish treaty of mutual defense, which made him worry that the UK might actually intervene. However, by September 1 he had convinced himself that the UK could be bullied into submission and wouldn't intervene over Poland. When the UK delivered its OTL ultimatum on September 3, he was despondent but had already committed himself to war. Ian Kershaw's biography is pretty clear on that point.

Even IOTL, Hitler miscalculated pretty horribly in regards to Poland. He genuinely believed that the UK wouldn't intervene even if they made guarantees to Poland, and without the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact still planned to invade. In a scenario where the Anglo-Polish defense treaty is delayed by a day and Molotov-Ribbentrop isn't negotiated, it's almost certain he still would've invaded on August 26th.
 

Deleted member 94680

Perhaps especially so. Soviet direct threat and Germany's imminent collapse means that the anti-Nazi opposition needs to act quickly and to make deal with the Allies, as long as they still have some cards to play. If, or rather when German economy breaks down and the army is deprived of supplies nothing would stop the Soviets in the east. A last resort would be to send all still combat capable forces to the east and open clear way to the Allies all the way to Berlin or even Warsaw, just to avoid the Soviet occupation.
But with Hitler in charge it is impossible.
Hmm yeah that’s a good point. I kind of saw it as once Barbarossa had started, it was “victory or destruction“ for the Heer, but I suppose this is a more realistic way of looking at it.

Unless you bring in Hitler insanity, which in September 1939, before the 1940-1 military successes would just produce a coup removing Hitler anyway, you really have to work to get Germany in a war with the USSR, UK, and France at the same time.
The PoD here is a Russian one, not a German one
 
The PoD here is a Russian one, not a German one
I believe the question is would Germany have gone ahead with the invasion of Poland without an agreement with the USSR.

I believe like the op seems to that they would have.
 

Deleted member 94680

I believe the question is would Germany have gone ahead with the invasion of Poland without an agreement with the USSR.

I believe like the op seems to that they would have.
Because OTL the Germans had a plan to follow and an alliance with Russia wasn’t part of it. But the Russians doing what they did OTL changed the German plan. Ergo, the Russians not doing what they did OTL would mean (in all likelihood) that the Germans would do what they originally planned to do.

Hence, a Russian PoD.
 
Why do you say the Germans had resources for 2-3 years war? I have serious doubts about that. E.g. I believe Germany would have had enormous problems with oil. They would have had no supplies from Romania : Romania had a pact with Poland and USSR and Allies together would surely pressured Romania to deny Germany any oil from Ploesti. IOTL the Soviets provided Gerany with oil, food and many other raw resources until 1941. ITTL Germany is practically cut off from the rest of the world, with possible small gap in blockade being Italy. However I do not think Italy is able to provide Germany with all they need, especially oil. Add to that iron ores, rubber etc. And remember, German losses are higher, both in men and equipment (and did I mentioned OIL?), since they need to fight the Soviets.
So while Germany should be able to mobilize additional men, they will have enormous problems with equipment and arms for them. Those new divisisons, if they are created at all, will be very weak indeed. And there will be no new armoured divisions either: no oil for them. Any offensive against the French will be highly doubtful. Germany must wait until spring 1940 to attack France (weather) and that gives the Soviets time to fully mobilize their enormous and mostly intact industry. And even if Germany attacks in 1940, will the Panzers and Luftwaffe have enough fuel to achieve much? I do not think so.
So in late 1939 ITTL Germany has much less resources and many more enemies: Britain and France completely intact in the West; USSR in the east and add to that remains of the Polish Army. Sure, the Red Army sucks big time, but also Wehrmacht is not in its top form - they lack the experience they gained in France. Germany is pretty much surrounded and isolated, no sane politician in Europe will dare to join Hitler against combined might of Britain, France and USSR, so no allies. I do not think Mussolini will be foolish enough to do more than secretly help Germans with buying some war materials, but it will be a drop in a sea.
IMO Germany is screwed big time. I predict a coup in a few months.
Adam Tooze discusses these estimates in The Wages of Destruction. The Wehrmacht could make its post-Poland resources stretch for 3 years if it abstained from serious offensive action, 2 years if it remained constantly on the move. The numbers posted in the post below yours supports that assessment - without Soviet/Western resources and engaging in a sustained offensive, Germany would face severe economic constraints come Fall 1941 - Spring 1942.

In terms of oil, grain, etc., I think Germany's resource balance for 1940 is about the same as IOTL. Soviet oil only arrived in significant quantities in the latter half of 1940 - in the first half they consistently fell very far from the 60,000 tons/month promised. Ericson in Feeding the German Eagle describes it as a trickle. By the end of May 1940 the Soviet had shipped 155,000 tons of oil in comparison to German stocks of 1,115,000 , 8,600 tons of manganese in comparison to stocks of 230,000, and 128,100 tons of grain in comparison to stocks of 4,693,000 tons. Up until the Battle of France, the German material balance was only marginally supported by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - with or without it, on paper they'd have the resources to go on the offensive. Ironically, Stalin's economic aid did more to help Hitler invade his own country than anything else.

In terms of armaments production, Germany had a substantial surplus of equipment in May 1940 compared to its actual needs, according to Germany and the Second World War Volume V, which makes me believe that even if German production is substantially lower than IOTL it will still have the munitions for one "going for broke" campaign. It had 1,182 surplus 105mm field howitzers, 68,000 machine guns, 4,300 AT guns, etc. The only touch-and-go area is tank production, which performed below average from 1939-1940 because of structural issues and the investment in field armaments. 2,580 tanks of all types for 10 panzer divisions in the West vs 3,240 one would expect from the 1939 TOE. However, Germany had another 900 AFVs in May 1940 (500 Panzer Is, 200 Panzer IIs, 100 38ts, IIIs, IVs, etc.) which weren't used the West. If the German Army has to make do with worse tanks, this doesn't change the outcome of a Sickle Cut style campaign - Germany already won IOTL despite qualitative and quantitative inferiority. 60% of the tanks involved in the main blow were Panzer I and IIs.

Therefore, I think the material balance holds that Germany can launch an OTL 1940-style offensive even with worse equipment losses and lower production. Whether it pursues the same winning strategy is, of course, the big question. A 1914-style offensive would be bloody but ultimately futile. If it doesn't win in 1940, they'll be on the ropes by Fall 1941 and defeated by Spring 1942 at the latest. But it can still inflict a lot of harm on millions of people in the meantime.
 
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nbcman

Donor
Adam Tooze discusses these estimates in The Wages of Destruction. The Wehrmacht could make its post-Poland resources stretch for 3 years if it abstained from serious offensive action, 2 years if it remained constantly on the move. The numbers posted in the post below yours supports that assessment - without Soviet/Western resources and engaging in a sustained offensive, Germany would face severe economic constraints come Fall 1941 - Spring 1942.

In terms of oil, grain, etc., I think Germany's resource balance for 1940 is about the same as IOTL. Soviet oil only arrived in significant quantities in the latter half of 1940 - in the first half they consistently fell very far from the 60,000 tons/month promised. Ericson in Feeding the German Eagle describes it as a trickle. By the end of May 1940 the Soviet had shipped 155,000 tons of oil in comparison to German stocks of 1,115,000 , 8,600 tons of manganese in comparison to stocks of 230,000, and 128,100 tons of grain in comparison to stocks of 4,693,000 tons. Up until the Battle of France, the German material balance was only marginally supported by the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact - with or without it, on paper they'd have the resources to go on the offensive. Ironically, Stalin's economic aid did more to help Hitler invade his own country than anything else.

In terms of armaments production, Germany had a substantial surplus of equipment in May 1940 compared to its actual needs, according to Germany and the Second World War Volume V, which makes me believe that even if German production is substantially lower than IOTL it will still have the munitions for one "going for broke" campaign. It had 1,182 surplus 105mm field howitzers, 68,000 machine guns, 4,300 AT guns, etc. The only touch-and-go area is tank production, which performed below average from 1939-1940 because of structural issues and the investment in field armaments. 2,580 tanks of all types for 10 panzer divisions in the West vs 3,240 one would expect from the 1939 TOE. However, Germany had another 900 AFVs in May 1940 (500 Panzer Is, 200 Panzer IIs, 100 38ts, IIIs, IVs, etc.) which weren't used the West. If the German Army has to make do with worse tanks, this doesn't change the outcome of a Sickle Cut style campaign - Germany already won IOTL despite qualitative and quantitative inferiority. 60% of the tanks involved in the main blow were Panzer I and IIs.

Therefore, I think the material balance holds that Germany can launch an OTL 1940-style offensive even with worse equipment losses and lower production. Whether it pursues the same winning strategy is, of course, the big question. If it doesn't win in 1940, they'll be on the ropes by Fall 1941 and defeated by Spring 1942 at the latest.
If you are citing my post, that doesn't support the assessment of 2 years because those numbers include western resources captured or assessed as reparations in 1940 and 1941 plus increased resources that came from the Balkans after the fall of France such as Romanian oil (oil exports increased to Germany increased due to the cut off of Romanian oil exports to the UK and France). Germany most likely can't support an offensive in the West in 1940 strong enough to knock out the French with the Bear stumbling their way into Poland in 1939.
 
If you are citing my post, that doesn't support the assessment of 2 years because those numbers include western resources captured or assessed as reparations in 1940 and 1941 plus increased resources that came from the Balkans after the fall of France such as Romanian oil (oil exports increased to Germany increased due to the cut off of Romanian oil exports to the UK and France). Germany most likely can't support an offensive in the West in 1940 strong enough to knock out the French with the Bear stumbling their way into Poland in 1939.

Only a tiny portion of German oil imports came from war booty in 1939-1940, about 800,000 tons. 363,000 tons of gasoline; 65,000 tons of diesel fuel; 222,000 tons of aviation fuel; and 150,000 tons of fuel oil. Increased air and naval costs in the war against the UK alone exceeded these amounts. And as Tooze notes, the capture of the economies of Western Europe did substantial harm to the German economy, as it had to provide supplies to all of Western Europe - France alone consumed 5.4 million tons annually. And of course, Germany more than doubled its armored forces from 10 panzer and 4 motorized divisions in May 1940 to 20 panzer and 13 motorized divisions in June 1941. Naturally Germany will suffer from smaller motorized and air forces, but its consumption would be substantially reduced compared to OTL 1941. Germany's deficit was going to be as high 1.6 million tons by the end of 1941 even with increased Soviet imports, no major land operations, and a monopoly on Romanian consumption, compared to 1.4 million in May 1940.

Anyway, I'd suggest reading the rest of my post. The amount of fuel and grain received by Germany from the USSR from 1939-early 1940 was negligible. It would have more than enough resources for a 1940 offensive.
 
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nbcman

Donor
Only a tiny portion of German oil imports came from war booty in 1939-1940, about 800,000 tons. 363,000 tons of gasoline; 65,000 tons of diesel fuel; 222,000 tons of aviation fuel; and 150,000 tons of fuel oil. Increased air and naval costs in the war against the UK alone exceeded these amounts. And as Tooze notes, the capture of the economies of Western Europe did substantial harm to the German economy, as it had to provide supplies to all of Western Europe - France alone consumed 5 million tons annually. And of course, Germany more than doubled its armored forces from 10 panzer and 4 motorized divisions in May 1940 to 20 panzer and 13 motorized divisions in June 1941. Naturally Germany will suffer from a smaller motorized force and air force, but its consumption would be substantially reduced compared to OTL 1941.

Anyway, I'd suggest reading the rest of my post. The amount of fuel and grain received by Germany from the USSR from 1939-early 1940 was negligible. It would have more than enough resources for a 1940 offensive.
Pretty disingenuous in calling the war booty a 'tiny portion' without any context.

Germany captured about 5 million barrels of oil products in 1940 which was about one third of the size of their 15 million barrel oil stockpile at the beginning of the war and was greater than the amount of oil that they purchased from Romania in 1939 (around 700k tons).


German oil supplies came from three different sources: imports of crude and finished petroleum products from abroad, production by domestic oil fields, and syntheses of petroleum products from coal.

In 1938, of the total consumption of 44 million barrels, imports from overseas accounted for 28 million barrels or roughly 60 percent of the total supply. An additional 3.8 million barrels were imported overland from European sources (2.8 million barrels came from Romania alone), and another 3.8 million barrels were derived from domestic oil production. The remainder of the total, 9 million barrels, were produced synthetically. Although the total overseas imports were even higher in 1939 before the onset of the blockade in September (33 million barrels), this high proportion of overseas imports only indicated how precarious the fuel situation would become should Germany be cut off from them.

At the outbreak of the war, Germany’s stockpiles of fuel consisted of a total of 15 million barrels. The campaigns in Norway, Holland, Belgium, and France added another 5 million barrels in booty, and imports from the Soviet Union accounted for 4 million barrels in 1940 and 1.6 million barrels in the first half of 1941.

Source: http://www.ijssh.org/papers/255-S00048.pdf
The German domestic production in 1938 equalled approximately 3,000,000 tons (500,000 tons obtained through natural extraction, while approximately 2,500,000 tons were produced synthetically) (M.P.R. (1940) [2]. At the same time, Germany imported 4.5 million tons of oil (3.415 million tons from other continents, 704,432 tons from Romania and 80,000 tons from the Soviet Union) (M.P.R. (1939) [3], of which about 75% from outside Europe.

Now that we've cleared up the oil issue, what about the shortages of foodstuffs and other resources that the Germans extracted from the West after the fall of France? From this thread:


For example, France was assessed approximately 1.8 Billion RM for costs in 1940 plus 5 Billion RM in 1941. Germany's total government income between 1933 and 1939 was 62 Billion RM so their annual income averaged about 9 Billion during that time frame. So the occupied countries after 1940 were being assessed costs annually that approached or possibly exceeded the overall German total annual government income. Hardly a tiny portion there either.
 

OTOH Germany received a lot of oil from Romania. On 29th of September 1939 Germany signed a deal with Romania. In exchange for weapons and money, of course, Romania promised to supply Germany with 600 000 tons of oil products. In December 1939 Romanians agreed to send 130 000 tons of oil to Germany each month. Another deal in March 1940 gave Germany additional 200 000 tons of oil.
Now ITTL I believe Germany can not count on Romanian oil. Pressure from both western Allies and the Soviets on Romania would be IMO too strong, not to mention that the Soviets could actually attack Ploesti by air. So that milion of tons of oil in German stocks in May 1940 never get there in the first place. Considering that Germany fighting also against Soviets will burn much more fuel than IOTL I believe that they will run out of oil pretty quickly.
 
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Pretty disingenuous in calling the war booty a 'tiny portion' without any context.

Germany captured about 5 million barrels of oil products in 1940 which was about one third of the size of their 15 million barrel oil stockpile at the beginning of the war and was greater than the amount of oil that they purchased from Romania in 1939 (around 700k tons).




Source: http://www.ijssh.org/papers/255-S00048.pdf


Now that we've cleared up the oil issue, what about the shortages of foodstuffs and other resources that the Germans extracted from the West after the fall of France? From this thread:


For example, France was assessed approximately 1.8 Billion RM for costs in 1940 plus 5 Billion RM in 1941. Germany's total government income between 1933 and 1939 was 62 Billion RM so their annual income averaged about 9 Billion during that time frame. So the occupied countries after 1940 were being assessed costs annually that approached or possibly exceeded the overall German total annual government income. Hardly a tiny portion there either.
I think the source from Axis History isn't accurate, and uses barrels instead of tons in any case. Oil and Grand Strategy: Great Britain and Germany, citing German archival documents, gives the numbers I listed: 363,000 tons of gasoline; 65,000 tons of diesel fuel; 222,000 tons of aviation fuel; and 150,000 tons of fuel oil. 21,000,0000 gallons of oil contained in 5 million barrels equals 660,000 tons, though different fuels have different weights so that explains the difference.

Overall, I think German archival documents win this round. Yes, Germany will run a severe fuel deficit by Summer-Fall 1941 if it doesn't engage in fuel saving measures. But its estimated deficit in OTL 1941-1942 even with Soviet imports was similarly massive, because it was maintaining a larger army, supplying all of Europe, and running more intensive air/naval operations.

In any case, I think the debate of whether the Nazi war economy is on its last legs in June or October 1941 is less important than what Germany does when it has the fuel and material to go on the offensive in May 1940, even with the Red Army. If Germany still defeats France in May 1940, we're looking at a very interesting turn of events.
OTOH Germany received a lot of oil from Romania. On 29th of September 1939 Germany signed a deal with Romania. In exchange for weapons and money, of course, Romania promised to supply Germany with 600 000 tons of oil products. In December 1939 Romanians agreed to send 130 000 tons of oil to Germany each month. Another deal in March 1940 gave Germany additional 200 000 tons of oil.
Now ITTL I believe Germany can not count on Romanian oil. Pressure from both western Allies and the Soviets on Romania would be IMO too strong, not to mention that the Soviets could actually attack Ploesti by air. So that milion of tons of oil in German stocks in May 1940 never get there in the first place. Considering that Germany fighting also against Soviets will burn much more fuel than IOTL I believe that they will run out of oil pretty quickly.

If Germany is running defensive operations against the USSR I doubt fuel consumption is gonna be too hefty.
 
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nbcman

Donor
I think the source from Axis History isn't accurate, and uses barrels instead of tons in any case. Oil and Grand Strategy: Great Britain and Germany, citing German archival documents, gives the numbers I listed: 363,000 tons of gasoline; 65,000 tons of diesel fuel; 222,000 tons of aviation fuel; and 150,000 tons of fuel oil. 21,000,0000 gallons of oil contained in 5 million barrels equals 660,000 tons, though different fuels have different weights so that explains the difference.

Overall, I think German archival documents win this round. Yes, Germany will run a severe fuel deficit by Summer-Fall 1941 if it doesn't engage in fuel saving measures. But its estimated deficit in OTL 1941-1942 even with Soviet imports was similarly massive, because it was maintaining a larger army, supplying all of Europe, and running more intensive air/naval operations.

In any case, I think the debate of whether the Nazi war economy is on its last legs in June or October 1941 is less important than what Germany does when it has the fuel and material to go on the offensive in May 1940, even with the Red Army. If Germany still defeats France in May 1940, we're looking at a very interesting turn of events.


If Germany is running defensive operations against the USSR I doubt fuel consumption is gonna be too hefty.
Regardless of whether or not you believe it to be 800k tons or 660k tons, you are still ignoring the fact that it was a number that was around the amount of oil products imported by Germany from Romania in 1939. Hardly a tiny portion. So if the 912k tons of Soviet imports are removed along with 660k tons of captured oil stocks in the west, the Germans would be running a POL deficit before June 1941 considering they would be consuming more fuel in defensive operations against the USSR in 1939-1940 then they had to during the Sitzkreig. Not to mention other German supplies such as ammunition which were basically not being consumed for much of the fall and winter during the Sitzkreig.
 
Regardless of whether or not you believe it to be 800k tons or 660k tons, you are still ignoring the fact that it was a number that was around the amount of oil products imported by Germany from Romania in 1939. Hardly a tiny portion. So if the 912k tons of Soviet imports are removed along with 660k tons of captured oil stocks in the west, the Germans would be running a POL deficit before June 1941 considering they would be consuming more fuel in defensive operations against the USSR in 1939-1940 then they had to during the Sitzkreig. Not to mention other German supplies such as ammunition which were basically not being consumed for much of the fall and winter during the Sitzkreig.

I ran the math and I admit my error! Germany had 1.8 million tons of fuel in reserve in October 1939. The annual deficit it achieved by May 1940 was 1.4 million tons. Balancing out increased procurement/production with more intense military operations, Germany is rationing fuel even to the Army by Fall 1940 unless it wins big vs France and gets Romania on its side full time. They had enough fuel/munitions for one big gamble in Spring 1940, but that's probably it.

So, two possible ways things could develop.

1. Germany attacks and wins big against France in May 1940 while holding the USSR off in Poland with 40-odd divisions. Fuel shortages are temporarily alleviated.

2. Germany attacks and fails to win big in May 1940. It gets ground down and militarily defeated by Late 1940 - Early 1941.
 
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