WI: No Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?

I'm judging Hitler as one of those 'I would rather live as a tiger' leaders, so yes he would throw Germany into oblivion to avert the collapse of his regime a few years later on.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
I'm judging Hitler as one of those 'I would rather live as a tiger' leaders, so yes he would throw Germany into oblivion to avert the collapse of his regime a few years later on.
More or less what I thought.

Though I could see the Soviets jumping on Poland as they did OTL, regardless of whether or not they have a premeditated treaty with the Nazis. The opportunity is too good to pass up.
 

Though I could see the Soviets jumping on Poland as they did OTL, regardless of whether or not they have a premeditated treaty with the Nazis. The opportunity is too good to pass up.

I think what might throw Stalin off is how the Germans might react. Whilst there's little chance of Germany attacking Soviets once they reach the Polish-Soviet border, there certainly is if they meet inside Poland, the last thing he wants to do is get bogged down against the Germans whilst the Capitalists sit sipping Champagne behind the Maginot line. If he does go for it I don't think the Germans would actually be that stupid, if they are then they're even more screwed.
 

Wolfpaw

Banned
No, not near September 1939. He has to be concerned with an Army coup if he goes without the Soviet treaty. Even with the treaty, in OTL, Hitler was hesitant to invade.
Then there are going to be some serious domestic issues in Germany...

A military that is hesitant to go to war for the Volk und
Führer will probably see itself the target of a political purge. Whether Hitler and his thugs prove as adept at this as Stalin is much less certain.
 
Then there are going to be some serious domestic issues in Germany...

A military that is hesitant to go to war for the Volk und
Führer will probably see itself the target of a political purge. Whether Hitler and his thugs prove as adept at this as Stalin is much less certain.

Judging by what you've said about Stalin, and Hitler, along with others, I'd say Hitler wouldn't be as adept. Stalin relied on out maneuvering opponents and making his actions seem legit within the non-democratic system he was in. Hitler, judging by the Night of the Long Knives, didn't care to take such pains. Additionally, Hitler relied a lot more on charisma to keep himself in power, judging by what I've heard.

Hence, I doubt Hitler could succeed in such an arrangement.
 
I think Fall Weiss was contingent to M-R pact. Without it, Hitler would probably postpone it, and hope that Allies cave in, like they did in Czechoslovakia.
 
I don't think Hitler would invade Poland if he wasn't sure about the Russians while the Allies had made their views plain. At least not in the summer of '39.
 

Cook

Banned
No, not near September 1939. He has to be concerned with an Army coup if he goes without the Soviet treaty.
The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed on the 23 August, 1939; barely ten days before the invasion commenced. The German army was already deployed ready to assault, all planning was complete and general orders issued, all they were awaiting was the order to go with no indication of unrest in the army.

Even when the Pact was announced it was as a Non-Aggression Pact; Hitler kept the protocols dividing Poland with the Soviets from his generals, had he feared a coup he would have distributed the news of the deal further.

I don't think Hitler would invade Poland if he wasn't sure about the Russians while the Allies had made their views plain.
Not plain enough; Hitler expected them to do nothing.
Without it, Hitler would probably postpone it, and hope that Allies cave in, like they did in Czechoslovakia.
Although Munich was undoubtedly a Nazi diplomatic victory it wasn’t Hitler’s plan; he’d hoped for a short war with Czechoslovakia and the laurels of victory that would result. When it came Poland’s turn his diplomats were instructed to ensure that the terms would be unacceptable to the Poles, if they accepted and backed down then more demands would be added until they resisted; Hitler wanted a quick war with Poland, he didn’t expect the French and English to actually fight.

All indications are that Hitler would have invaded Poland anyway.
 
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No M-R Pact means not war with Poland. The only reason Hitler did it was because he thought a pact with the Soviet Union would avoid war with Britain & France over Poland. He thought making it known the West would not have an alliance with the USSR meant they would never fulfill their pledge to defend Poland. Hitler was very surprised when Britain & France did declare war over Poland.

No M-R Pact means such an alliance is possible, and Britain & France will not be deterred.

It is important to remember that Hitler did not envisage a war with Britain & France in 1939. He planned for a war in 1942/1943. 1939 was supposed to be a small war to test his army in Poland.
 
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