WI no large domesticated animals exist?

As something of an offshoot from the "WI horses survive in the Americas" thread, I'd like to pose a question.
What if there are no horses, cattle, donkeys, or any other large domesticated animals, anywhere in the world?
How would humans have adapted? What would be different about the world? And, where would we be today, technologically and otherwise?
 

monkey

Banned
History would be very diferent. Battles wil be composed entirerly of infantry. Does this include things like sheep, goats and pigs. Technically elephants arent domesticated, but just tamed animals. Are the wild ancestors extinct or do they just have the pshychology of Zebras. All the highlands, steppes, and deserts remain the realm of hunters. Unless sheep and goats are counted as small animals then they are the realm of the shepards. No army is going to run in fear from great mongolian shepards or hunters. Fewer sources of pathogens leads to fewer infectios deseases and plagues.

The lack of cartage, and plagues, will result in a small midle class and less labour shortages. So an industrial revolution and modernity are unlikely.
 
In the beginning, humans didn't ride on horses, but used them to pull chariots. No horses or other animals who can be ridden - no wheel, no roads, smaller empires, less communication. Civilization would be greatly hampered.
 

monkey

Banned
You are right civilisations in this scenario will look like the incas with narrow streets and roads made for pedestrians and porters. But in time they should develope metals, and given enough time eventually someone should come up with the idea for the weel barrow and handcart.
 
Assume the animals are extinct due to hunting or just climate change. Perhaps humans got good at hunting a little too soon in this TL and wiped out the megafauna in the Old World as well as the New, before anything could be domesticated. Goats, sheep, pigs, alpacas, turkeys, dogs and chickens are exempted, as they can't really be used as draught animals too well anyway. But no camels, donkeys, horses, cows, or even llamas (though they aren't that large really). Let's also assume elephants are extinct as well, though other large non-domesticable animals are left intact.

I think the Inca scenario is a good observation, as they are an example of such a civilization that has no good draught animals. The Aztec and Maya are as well. So we'd probably be somewhere in the bronze age, (The Inca had bronze at least, and some Mexican tribes supposedly were attempting to use it when the Europeans arrived.) with an alphabet, probably paper or some substitute, decent agriculture, a good calendar, etc. But civilization would probably be well behind OTL.
Would they eventually modernize (think into the future here, even millenia if necessary)?
I can't picture these people coming up with railroads and cars, at least not very quickly, possibly not ever. What would they have had to build off of?
However, they might surprise us. I'd guess canals would become a major mode of transportation, eventually much more widespread than OTL. And what about air travel? Without a major road network from prior horse-drawn vehicles, perhaps instead of highways, they'd use the water as much as possible for heavy loads, and airships or planes for passengers? (thinking well into the future here)
 
I heard that none of the Pre Columbian societies used wheels much but that in some they appeared on what seemed like toys.

Obviously the wheel is possible without draft animals. Humans can pull it. Also maybe other sources- wind for instance, might have been found in some contexts.

Plus of course transport by sea does not need draft animals.
 
I don't think lack of draft animals would prevent the modern world from ever happening, it would just make society development at a much, much slower pace. It would also look dramatically different, obviously.
 
What about the development of water and wind mills, are they dependent on domesticated animals, if only for the development of wheels and gears? Similarly, the Inca only got to bouyancy rafts rather than displacement hulled ships, are domesticated animals a catlyst for displacement hulled ships?
I can see an Aztec or Inca type society but with displacement sailing ships and wind/ewater powered devices, but no Industrial Revolution, yet.
 
Without large domesticated animals the human range is much smaller as you need them for plowing, especially in less fertile areas - not to mention the lack of meat.
I think we would remain largely tribal.

Use what happened in the new world as a model for the globe. Heirarchical urban civilizations based on intensive agriculture and water/resource management would develop in areas where local conditions favored them. However, cross-fertilization of ideas and technologies among the main early centers of civilization (such as between the Fertile Crescent, India, and China would be largely non-existent. Civilizations would remain localized, develop more slowly, and have less effect on adjacent tribal peoples. These civilizations would undergo more frequent epochs of rise and fall as they repeatedly exceed the ability of the local environment to sustain them. Other advanced technologies like metalurgy might arise eventually, but the whole transportation/industrial complex associated with wheeled vehicles might not. It is possible modern technological civilization would never evolve or be delayed for millenia.

If a dominant, relatively permanent, and industrialized center of civilization did evolve, I would imagine it being based on sea trade, ship building technologies, exploitation of maritime resources as a protein substitute, and the advanced astronomical knowledge this would require. Perhaps a European/North African/Middle Eastern center, or a center developing in Indonesia.
 
To continue with my speculation, I offer the following brief description of Earth, ca. GA350,000 (OTL AD 22,000) as excerpted from "A Survey of System 456: the initial report of Starship Kh'aathl Expedition to the outer rim".

The 3rd planet of Star 456 is home to species of sentient bipeds who have established a Class 2 civilization along the rim of the largest ocean, with subsidiary centers found in other littorial or archipelagaic settings. This civilization is composed of numerous independent polities, some of which were at war when we initiated contact. The most advanced exhibit well-evolved metallurgical, chemical, and biochemical technologies, excellent astronomical knowledge for a Class 2 civilization, and sophisticated aquaculture making excellent use of the 70% of 456-3 which covered by water. Maritime technology is very advanced, and these civilizations engage in long-distance trade (or warfare) using many different types of ships apparently powered by a combination of organic biomass fuels and wind power. While unobserved, it is believed submarine settlement and transportation has also evolved to a high level. On the other hand, land transportation technologies are quite undeveloped. It appears that wheeled vehicles, although used for personal short distance unpowered travel in a few locations, was never adopted to long range overland travel. This role was apparently assumed by large aerostatic dirigibles fairly early in the technological age, and now these vehicles are more than adequate to provide regular overland travel and trade among the coastal centers.

Very little use is made of the continental interiors, even for the exploitation of raw materials and energy resources. Very small numbers of the dominant bipeds do survive in the interiors, subsisting by hunting small animals and the gathering of a few wild vegetables. It appears that the maritime civilizations completely ignore most of these inland bipeds, and that the inlanders are completely unaware of the coastal civilizations (except in a narrow zone immediately adjacent to the civilized areas). Based upon initial remote biological assays, it appears the interior and coastal biped variants have been in mutual isolation for so long that they are no longer interfertile. This may explain the otherwise disturbing fact that the Maritime civilizations occasionally harvest the inland bipeds for food.
 
Without large domesticated animals the human range is much smaller as you need them for plowing, especially in less fertile areas - not to mention the lack of meat.

I think we would remain largely tribal.
The key word here plough. Without ploughs pre-industrial civilisations would be limited to hoe agriculture, which is less productive per farmer than plough agriculture.

That is not so say that large cities can not be built; at its peak Tenochtitlan was as large as Babylon or Rome. However there is going to a smaller % of craftsmen and craftsmen is one of the things cities are about.
 
The key word here plough. Without ploughs pre-industrial civilisations would be limited to hoe agriculture, which is less productive per farmer than plough agriculture.

That is not so say that large cities can not be built; at its peak Tenochtitlan was as large as Babylon or Rome. However there is going to a smaller % of craftsmen and craftsmen is one of the things cities are about.

The bigger issue, and a major reason civilization in the Valley of Mexico reached a certain level in the classic Teotihuacan period and then stagnated with cyclical periods of rise and fall is that early states lacking effective beasts of burden can only exploit very small "catchment areas" for food and fuel. When resources become depleted or the environment degrades in the core area (whether thru human or natural action), these states cannot exploit as large an area as those with beasts of burden and wheeled vehicles.

Consider the Inca. By many measures Andean civilization was far less developed or urbanized than central Mexico. But the domestication of the llama (itself a poor substitute for a proper camel, ox, or horse) allowed the development of a much larger empire, provision for "disaster relief", greater centralization, and quite possible help accelerate the spread of new technologies such as bronze metallurgy.
 
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