WI: No L. Cornelius Sulla

In -106, during the Jugurthine War, it is said that King Bocchus of Mauretania hesitated whether to deliver Jugurtha to Sulla (as he finally did IOTL) or the contrary. Assuming he'd chosen the latter option, and Jugurtha had shown no more mercy than the Romans did IOTL, how would the Roman Republic evolve in the 1st century BC (and beyond if you have ideas about that)?
 
Well Sulla was the first man to march on Rome so without him that particular taboo might not be broken for a while, however in his absence the proto-populares and Marians will probably ride roughshod over everyone which could have some interesting long term results.
 
Without Sulla, the Senate will stand firm against Marius - and he won't use force to bring them around. Without Marius' military reforms, Rome fails to hold Greece, southern Spain or North Africa. They become independent semidemocratic states with slight Roman flavoring. In time, Rome might compete - possibly unsuccessfully - with Egypt or even Persia for influence in the Med.
 
Without Sulla, the Senate will stand firm against Marius - and he won't use force to bring them around. Without Marius' military reforms, Rome fails to hold Greece, southern Spain or North Africa. They become independent semidemocratic states with slight Roman flavoring. In time, Rome might compete - possibly unsuccessfully - with Egypt or even Persia for influence in the Med.
The Marian reforms are roughly contemporaneous with the PoD. What makes you think Sulla had a role in forcing the Senate to accept them? Logically, if a Roman army has just been routed and its commander killed, it will make the new proposal that would create thousands more potential soldiers all the more attractive. Or am I missing something?
 
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Interesting. No Sulla means no march on Rome, plus no civil war after he returned from Greece and no proscriptions in Rome itself. The Senate will therefore be stronger. There'll be no Sullan constitution and also Pompey and Crassus will both be significantly weaker as they were both major supporters of Sulla.
In addition the intriguing figure of Sertorius might get more of a chance to thrive in Rome instead of being sidelined in Spain. I can imagine Sertorius being sent off to kick Mithradates out of Greece - Sulla only did half the job as he needed to get back to Italy.
 
Well with Sulla dead and Bocchus recommiting to the Jugurthine cause, we are going to see continuation of the war. This means that Marius fails to achieve the quick victory he had promised his populare backers. So its likely that Marius' political career will end with a humiliating recall after his consulship finishes. What happens after is anybody's guess. IMO we might see the previous commander Quintus Caecilius Metellus given a second chance with a mandate to conduct a long drawn out war. Assuming they eventually wear Jugurtha and Bocchus out, I can see both Numidia and Maurtaina being annexed into the Roman Republic.

What happens with the subsequent invasion of the Cimbri and Teutones is up in the air as well. We might see a consul who is more skilled than his OTL counterparts and manages to defeat the tribes before they are a threat. More likely IMO we are going to see a repeat of OTL with Roman armies defeated in part due to populare-optimate rivalries but with no shining Marius figure to successfully attract recruits and to successfully train and lead them, I think we could see a Second Punic war style situation where the Romans give the tribes the intiative hoping to keep an army in being until they get an opportunity to strike back. We could end up seeing a much humbled Rome with its dominion in Italy greatly curtailed by large numbers of settling Germanics and maybe even resurgent Saminites( if the tribes make it far south enough).

With loss of complete control over Italy, I suspect the optimate-populare squabble would be largely forgotten as the Romans attempt to regain what was lost.
 
Well with Sulla dead and Bocchus recommiting to the Jugurthine cause, we are going to see continuation of the war. This means that Marius fails to achieve the quick victory he had promised his populare backers. So its likely that Marius' political career will end with a humiliating recall after his consulship finishes. What happens after is anybody's guess. IMO we might see the previous commander Quintus Caecilius Metellus given a second chance with a mandate to conduct a long drawn out war. Assuming they eventually wear Jugurtha and Bocchus out, I can see both Numidia and Maurtaina being annexed into the Roman Republic.

What happens with the subsequent invasion of the Cimbri and Teutones is up in the air as well. We might see a consul who is more skilled than his OTL counterparts and manages to defeat the tribes before they are a threat. More likely IMO we are going to see a repeat of OTL with Roman armies defeated in part due to populare-optimate rivalries but with no shining Marius figure to successfully attract recruits and to successfully train and lead them, I think we could see a Second Punic war style situation where the Romans give the tribes the intiative hoping to keep an army in being until they get an opportunity to strike back. We could end up seeing a much humbled Rome with its dominion in Italy greatly curtailed by large numbers of settling Germanics and maybe even resurgent Samnites ( if the tribes make it far south enough).

With loss of complete control over Italy, I suspect the optimate-populare squabble would be largely forgotten as the Romans attempt to regain what was lost.
Very interesting, keedaman. In a 2nd Punic War repeat, the socii will be the key. Either the Senate grants them full citizenship, or they'll probably ally with the Cimbri.
 
Without Sulla, the republic is due to end 100 years before than OTL.
Whether if will be Marius, one of the Gracchi, or some other opportunist of the populares factio, SPQR as it has been before is to be overthrown and a principate is established.
The bellum socialis will be surely a problem, but not something impossible to overcome.
Mithridates will be a pain in the arse, but since the economic vector of the equites was mainly asia minor, he will feel the full wrath of the army(instead of juste the couple legions Sulla had OTL) and will be wiped away.
Colonization on the Po valley, on the other hand (which was the main target of the optimates) will be stalled.
We could vey well have an empire with a border on the Padus instead than on the Rhine
Numidia and western africa (more west of carthago) will be trascured, and nobody will give a used tunica whether Jugurtha or his brother rules there.
Eyes will be focused on rich preys: Aegyptum and Syria.
Whether this will cause overextension, I do not know
 
Without Sulla, the republic is due to end 100 years before than OTL.
Whether if will be Marius, one of the Gracchi, or some other opportunist of the populares factio, SPQR as it has been before is to be overthrown and a principate is established.
The bellum socialis will be surely a problem, but not something impossible to overcome.
Mithridates will be a pain in the arse, but since the economic vector of the equites was mainly asia minor, he will feel the full wrath of the army(instead of juste the couple legions Sulla had OTL) and will be wiped away.
Colonization on the Po valley, on the other hand (which was the main target of the optimates) will be stalled.
We could vey well have an empire with a border on the Padus instead than on the Rhine
Numidia and western africa (more west of carthago) will be trascured, and nobody will give a used tunica whether Jugurtha or his brother rules there.
Eyes will be focused on rich preys: Aegyptum and Syria.
Whether this will cause overextension, I do not know
100 years earlier is before the PoD:p
 
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