WI: No K-T extinction

[ArKhan]

Once agian, I must direct people to this:
http://www.unet.univie.ac.at/~a0000265/Spec/Mammalia.html
There mammal page is really fun for understanding which mammal clades where around in the Cretaceous, and the evolutionary relationships there in. First major split: Egg layers (monotremes and gondwanatheres) vs live birthers (multituberculates, theria), then the spilt in the theria (metatheria, eutheria). Metatheria are marsupials and their kin, the eutheria split between the placentals, and the basal eutheria. The Placentals are then split between the 4 major clades, the Supraprimates, The Afrotheria, The Laurasiatheria, and the Xenatheria. The Supraprimates are the group we belong to. The largest on modern OTL earth in terms of species count. They split between the Primates, the Rodents, some bats, and Langomorphs (rabbits). Second largest in terms of species count is the Laurasiatheria. They include whales, the ungulates (most modern mammal herbivores, goats, camels, horses, deer, rhinos, etc), the Carnivora (most modern mammal carnivores, cats, dogs, bears, weasles, racoons, etc), and some of the bats. The Afrotheria includes elephants, manatees, and aardvarks. The Xenatheria, includes sloths, armadillos, and anteaters.

 

[Admiral Matt]

well actually, most dinosaurs around that size are dinosaurs are what we would call birds. thats why, nowadays, the KT extinction is called the mass extinction of NON-AVIAN dinosaurs, and not JUST dinosaurs. it should be noted, though, that the placement of birds among dinosaurs is a bit uncertain.

Nonsense. I bet you're one of those Heliocentrists, too.

Seriously, though, I think it's safe to assume that we all know that, right? We were specifically discussing the smaller ones that were not fliers or gliders, but instead filled niches similar to squirrels, rats, or early primates.

I think it a very interesting question not least because the birds survived when near relatives did not, despite having the same size and insulation as mammals.

 

[Admiral Matt]

And I agree with this. That's why I said that there'd actually be a more diverse fauna than IOTL here. Avian theropods have produced several times megafaunal predators, of which the Phorusacids were a later example but not atypical of Cenozoic dinosaurs (interestingly if you see it in a cladistic light pre-Maori New Zealand was the last dinosaurian ecosystem on the planet with Moae as hadrosaurs and Haast's eagles as avian theropods).

Ah, a misunderstanding then. Apologies.

And again, while this is so there have been bipedal herbivorous megafauna even into the historical era, the elephant birds, moae, and dodo are all examples of this.

True enough, though I'd point out that those all developed in densely wooded habitats, where herbivores primarily browse rather than graze. I believe I recall Madagascar actually having a herbivorous crocodile that was the primary plant eater of its open regions. It died very fast after the arrival of humans.

Except that the temnospondyls actually lasted into the Cretaceous, while a relict population of Woolly Mammoths lasted into the days of Ancient Egypt and Ancient Assyria......

It's awesome, no? I like to imagine that some intrepid traveler made the journey from the Middle East and lived to tell about it, but I suppose it's too much to hope for....

 

[Admiral Matt]

Once agian, I must direct people to this:

Very, very, very cool. I'll have to check it out.

 

[oshron]

on the matter of arboreal dinosaurs in squirrel niches and the like, i dont think there were that many non-avian dinosaurs filling those roles. those probably would have been occupied by mammals of some kind or another, but im not entirely sure. the only dinosaur that comes to mind as possibly occupying something like that would be animals like rahonavis (a type of unenlagiine from madagascar) and microraptorines (which originated in eastern asia). both of these are speculated to have been capable of flight, or at least gliding. incidentally, both of these are mentioned in the timeline i posted

 

[ArKhan]

Not that I don't love this thread, but shouldn't it be in ASB?

 

[oshron]

i dont think its THAT ASB for an extinction to simply not occur. after all, we dont know exactly what CAUSED the KT-extinction. moving the asteroid (commonly accepted as the cause) just a little to the left could change everything

 

[Zuvarq]

Not that I don't love this thread, but shouldn't it be in ASB?

No, because there are perfectly non-ASB ways it could have happened (or, rather, not happened).

 

[ArKhan]

I simply meant most pre-human PODs go there.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Not that I don't love this thread, but shouldn't it be in ASB?

Actually, he's completely right. Moving a multi-ton chunk of rock off course to hit the Earth would be ASB, obviously. We're doing exactly the same thing here.

Essentially this is a geographic PoD writ large. Technically ASB Forum material.

Still, whatever. We're here.

 

[Reniero Zeno]

Well going back to the discussion of alternative intelligent lifeforms, I'd like to contribute a few things.

An intelligent lifeform's

• Unlikely to be a flier, simple mechanical limitations of a large head and aerodynamics.
• Unlikely to be fully-aquatic mainly due to oxygen and fire limitations. I don't know enough about aquatic mechanical engineering to contribute further.
• Likely to be a transitional quadrupedal, I really can't imagine a reason for a lifeform to have excessive limbs unless it was shedding them. That or octopusses in the ocean.
• Needs to be in an environment to necessitate the development of flexible digits, or some equivalent like tentacles. Trees provide the ideal evironment for digit development.
• Unlikely to be anti-social as intelligence requires teamwork for a multiplier advantage.
• Specialized animals are quite unlikely, as specialization also means slower and fewer adaptations possible.

Now personally I like to suggest the possibility of some amphibious octopus, born 3-D orientation, robust space self-sustainable aquatic evironement, natural weightless evironment, they'd be the perfect venonauts. Oh! And nocturnal if possible, only the cool and the blind wear shades at night.
Think about it:

You wake up from your waving sea-weed bed, your alarm clock has been buzzing for a while. It was 2 ticks past sundown, but no matter as your hypersensitive eyes can pick up the slightest ray of light or UW and amplify it. As you lock your sunscreens in the Australian Coral cabinet you take a quick moment to flex your tentacles. Drifting hazily to your closest you hear the quick swish of the valves as pumps bring in warm water heated during the day mixed with mineral rich water from the depths. While the valves are annoying you know that they are crucial for they feed the blue plankton that serves both as a curtain during the day and the source of your snacks. Heeding your basic needs you snap a random anchovy from the swarm swimming around your room. Tying your decorative ribbon around your thigh and placing your identifications into the carrier fish's bag your off for the day.

*if interested I can elaborate, too tired to type right now*

 

[Zuvarq]

Actually, he's completely right. Moving a multi-ton chunk of rock off course to hit the Earth would be ASB, obviously. We're doing exactly the same thing here.

Essentially this is a geographic PoD writ large. Technically ASB Forum material.

Still, whatever. We're here.

Well, 's not as ASB as the majority of geographic PODs. Unlike one where, for example, the Indian plate decides to move back south beginning 15 million years ago, you have billions of years to slightly adjust the course of the rock in any way. "WI: that rock that hit the rock that caused the K-T extinction bounced off at a 64.9999999434° angle instead of a 64.9999999439° angle?" (what's that physical law called, the one that makes water's motions slightly random? This isn't water, but still)

Now personally I like to suggest the possibility of some amphibious octopus.

I doubt any amphibious creature could develop sentient intelligence. They could only interact with things in coastal waters or on the beach, or else they'd drown/suffocate (depending on whether they have gills or lungs).

A mere 65 million years to develop some sort of lung or lungs, move onto land, figure out some way of moving quickly on land, adapt to living in trees, hunt in packs, evolve to live back on the ground again, and develop sentient intelligence?

 

[Reniero Zeno]

I doubt any amphibious creature could develop sentient intelligence. They could only interact with things in coastal waters or on the beach, or else they'd drown/suffocate (depending on whether they have gills or lungs).

A mere 65 million years to develop some sort of lung or lungs, move onto land, figure out some way of moving quickly on land, adapt to living in trees, hunt in packs, evolve to live back on the ground again, and develop sentient intelligence?

I like to point out that certain OTL octopusses' intelligence are on par with dophins and chimps, some species are already hunting in packs, and are capable of limited amphibious breathing and mobility (but quite frankly how little we know about the deep is sad). 65 million year can do that, especially as I said earlier, for tool use you need digits or tentacles. Octopusses already have the spare limbs with sufficent dexterity for tool use, so there's no need to live in trees to create an incentitive for dexterious digits. I picked amphibious for the advantage of a much larger living range ,get fire, and the ability to draw in on a much higher oxygen content. They could start off somewhere similar to the the Amazon delta/Venetian lagoon where long-distance land travel isn't a problem (or some island group without large predators), in fact if we originated from the Amazons instead of the Savannah we could very well be short-legged. Oh and certain octopusses are comparable to humans in speed (nothing long-range, not that they need it), easily exceeeding humans in strength and dexterity.

One more thing, the ocean easily allows for greater size of life, a greater brain size is mechanically much easier to support in oxygen-rich shores than a bipod on land

 

[oshron]

i wouldnt say so. there's too many things on land capable of eating soft-bodied octopuses. theyd be clumsy trying to come onto land, and there'd be mammals, aquatic semi-aquatic birds, and reptiles that can eat them, not to mention dinosaurs (btw, i personally rank dinosaurs as separate from other reptiles because of their almost undeniable warm-bloodedness; thats why i mention them separately, just for the record). some kind of semi-amphibious cephalopod or mollusk like that i wouldnt put as too far out there, but not achieving sentience like taht. maybe theyd be present in forests that flood regularly, who knows?

btw, the mention of fliers earlier reminded me, there's a theory floating around that at least some maniraptorans (the group of dinosaurs that included raptors) may have been capable of gliding or even flying at young ages and may have been arboreal, at least to an extent, until they grew older and larger when they became too heavy to stay in the air. there's also other theories that at least some kinds of dinosaurs may have occupied different ecological niches over their lifetimes, so a small and young tyrannosaur would have a different role in the ecosystem than a large and old one

 

[Reniero Zeno]

i wouldnt say so. there's too many things on land capable of eating soft-bodied octopuses. theyd be clumsy trying to come onto land, and there'd be mammals, aquatic semi-aquatic birds, and reptiles that can eat them, not to mention dinosaurs (btw, i personally rank dinosaurs as separate from other reptiles because of their almost undeniable warm-bloodedness; thats why i mention them separately, just for the record). some kind of semi-amphibious cephalopod or mollusk like that i wouldnt put as too far out there, but not achieving sentience like taht. maybe theyd be present in forests that flood regularly, who knows?

That's why I suggested some mild evironment devoid of too many predators. Just like how homosapins originated from a dangerously small genetic stack of a couple thousand or so, probably due to some catastrophic event that drove them to near extinction to facilitate a clean slate where they would have the time to really set-up some rudimentary presence on land and just like our ancestors systematically eleminate all other competitors. The best chance would an extinction event that did not affect the seas severely, thus preserving the capable predators at sea giving cephalopods an incentitive for intelligence and a reason to escape to land. I'm thinking of a transitional octopuss that has evolved some protective measures on land (like a tough hide, better vision, dual-usage ear or a seperate set for both water and land) but still aquatic capable (sorta like how some animals shut down certain organs when diving).

I don't need them to thrive on land, just survive long enough in some lucky perserve for the intelligence modifier to kick in.

 

[Twin City Lines]

That is a good resource.

***

I would hope some form of alternate intelligent species (The Dinosauroid, Dinosapien, Humanosaur, whatever you wanna call it) rises. But I'm not sure of the likelihood, or if they'd ever get to a human definition of civilization.

Don't forget that intelligence isn't enough to form a civilisation. Physical capabilities like speech and the ability to manipulate objects are a major part of what makes humans "human".

 

[oshron]

That's why I suggested some mild evironment devoid of too many predators. Just like how homosapins originated from a dangerously small genetic stack of a couple thousand or so, probably due to some catastrophic event that drove them to near extinction to facilitate a clean slate where they would have the time to really set-up some rudimentary presence on land and just like our ancestors systematically eleminate all other competitors. The best chance would an extinction event that did not affect the seas severely, thus preserving the capable predators at sea giving cephalopods an incentitive for intelligence and a reason to escape to land. I'm thinking of a transitional octopuss that has evolved some protective measures on land (like a tough hide, better vision, dual-usage ear or a seperate set for both water and land) but still aquatic capable (sorta like how some animals shut down certain organs when diving).

I don't need them to thrive on land, just survive long enough in some lucky perserve for the intelligence modifier to kick in.

okay, but we arent really talking about a mass-extinction occurring, its one NOT occurring

btw, there ARE terrestrial octopuses and squids already, in The Future Is Wild

 

[Reniero Zeno]

okay, but we arent really talking about a mass-extinction occurring, its one NOT occurring

btw, there ARE terrestrial octopuses and squids already, in The Future Is Wild

Yes but not ones with a civilization, and it doesn't have to be a mass extinction. I just need a reserve for them setup in, the extinction can be local, or it could just be an area that doesn't favour/sustain particular predators, I just need a relative well sized area cleared for a small period of time to allow already social squids with flexible tentacles to adopt land tools and adapt defensive land measures. As I suggested before swamps, lagoons, river deltas, and islands too small to sustain large predators are good places to start.

Just like how the early humans were few in number and weak in physique relative to other predators all that was needed was a brief period for them to setup and gain the knowledge, orangization, and numbers for local superiority. Once they had the breathing space to utilize their intelligence they were unstoppable by anyone except themselves.

 

[Admiral Matt]

Uhm.... There's a reason tentacles are primarily used by creatures living in water.

It's the same explanation for why astronauts train for zero gravity in swimming pools. Tentacles are severely impractical at Earth standard gravity without something to support them. Bones function as both levers and supports, allowing an organism to get its body into a certain position and stay. A tentacled creature can only remain in any position other than flat on the ground by exerting constant tension in its limbs - an overwhelming disadvantage in energy use.

On Earth you have organisms that support their tentacles by having much heavier bodies that have firm support - slugs, snails, opossums, monkeys, and elephants. They do this at the cost of constant effort. Ever notice the default position of an elephant's trunk? Every one of these relys on the organ as a fallback, precisely because of its fundamental limits. And don't assume that an octopus could necessarily duplicate a monkey's admittedly quite impressive abilities - the things would lack the skeletal structure supporting their squigglies.

On Earth you have organisms that support their tentacles by living in water their entire lives. This is because they rely exclusively on the organs, and are therefore cripples on dry land. Monster movies want it to be different, but the laws of Physics simply do not provide for the possibility of large-bodied, land-dwelling squid at 1g.

Now if you want the evolution to take place on a terraformed Mars.... Then we can talk.

 

[Reniero Zeno]

Uhm.... There's a reason tentacles are primarily used by creatures living in water.

It's the same explanation for why astronauts train for zero gravity in swimming pools. Tentacles are severely impractical at Earth standard gravity without something to support them. Bones function as both levers and supports, allowing an organism to get its body into a certain position and stay. A tentacled creature can only remain in any position other than flat on the ground by exerting constant tension in its limbs - an overwhelming disadvantage in energy use.

On Earth you have organisms that support their tentacles by having much heavier bodies that have firm support - slugs, snails, opossums, monkeys, and elephants. They do this at the cost of constant effort. Ever notice the default position of an elephant's trunk? Every one of these relys on the organ as a fallback, precisely because of its fundamental limits. And don't assume that an octopus could necessarily duplicate a monkey's admittedly quite impressive abilities - the things would lack the skeletal structure supporting their squigglies.

On Earth you have organisms that support their tentacles by living in water their entire lives. This is because they rely exclusively on the organs, and are therefore cripples on dry land. Monster movies want it to be different, but the laws of Physics simply do not provide for the possibility of large-bodied, land-dwelling squid at 1g.

Now if you want the evolution to take place on a terraformed Mars.... Then we can talk.

I am aware of the extreme disadvatages of my octpusses on land, but I'm convinced that intelligence if given a start can eventually work past that. The only reason I have them on land is for fire, they don't have to live on land , just use the fire that requires air.

I know that all my ideas point towards monkeys as the best contender, I'm just highlighting what I think would be the second choice if they don't make it.