WI: No Jehovah's witnesses.

Well said! ;)

The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible.
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica "the doctrine developed gradually and was slowly adopted into the Church over several centuries and through many controversies."

So, if we insist belief in the Trinity is necessary to be a Christian, it seems Jesus' Apostles and disciples for the first couple of hundred years weren't Christians either!

The Actual Christians who clarified this stuff at Nicaea would disagree. The way they saw what they were doing was clarifying what the whole of the Church believed.

Similarly I would ask people in this thread as to what would make someone Christian if they don't accept Nicea, because beyond that there is no common denominator. Simply put unless you make Christian such a meaningless term, as just believing in Jesus, which Muslims fall under, you have to exclude someone. And for the overwhelming majority of Christians they belong to a Trinitarian Church. It seems clear then that if said overwhelming majority rejects one part they should be allowed to do that, free association and all that.
 
I would ask as to what criterion you base being Christian on. Because as far as I can tell you aren't Christian, sorry if you are.

"Christian" means "A follower of Christ"

So how would Christ have behaved if he lived in Germany in 1939?
Would he have cried: "Heil Hitler" as a greeting and joined the German Army if conscripted?
Or would he have refused, and ended up in a Concentration camp?

If we can decide on that, then we can analyse which religion was Christian in WW2.
 

SsgtC

Banned
I would ask as to what criterion you base being Christian on. Because as far as I can tell you aren't Christian, sorry if you are.
Actually, I'm not Christian. I'm Norse Pagan. I'm not a JW. I was raised as one but left the religion 17 years ago.

To answer your question, I consider a religion to be Christian if they believe Jesus to be the Christ and Messiah, to believe that he died for their sins and if they actively try to live by Jesus' teachings. I put no stock in whether they consider "God" to be a singular being (i.e. Jehovah) or a Trinity. Neither do I care if they subscribe to any particular creed issued by man.
 
Why are JW not a christian denomination?

They are. Some denominations just refuse top acknowledge them as such because they interpret the Bible differently than they do and have different doctrinal beliefs

I would ask as to what criterion you base being Christian on. Because as far as I can tell you aren't Christian, sorry if you are.

Well said! ;)

The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible.
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica "the doctrine developed gradually and was slowly adopted into the Church over several centuries and through many controversies."

So, if we insist belief in the Trinity is necessary to be a Christian, it seems Jesus' Apostles and disciples for the first couple of hundred years weren't Christians either!
The main issues are because JWs are:
  • Nontrinitarian - so Trinitarian Churches reject them
  • Restorationist - that is they seek to restore church governance like the early apostolic churches, so episcopalian churches tend to reject them
  • Millenarian - in that they believe the Second Coming us to some extent imminent, so churches that see the second coming as either metaphorical or apocalyptic tend to reject them
Likewise a lot of Churches reject the Mormons as Christian due to the additional scripture
 

SsgtC

Banned
The main issues are because JWs are:
  • Nontrinitarian - so Trinitarian Churches reject them
  • Restorationist - that is they seek to restore church governance like the early apostolic churches, so episcopalian churches tend to reject them
  • Millenarian - in that they believe the Second Coming us to some extent imminent, so churches that see the second coming as either metaphorical or apocalyptic tend to reject them
Likewise a lot of Churches reject the Mormons as Christian due to the additional scripture
One other issue, is that the JW's have changed some of their major doctrinal beliefs since they were founded. It's wikipedia, so use some salt, but this article gives a pretty good rundown of what they have and haven't changed since they began publishing The Watchtower in 1879.
 

SsgtC

Banned
Awesome! There is a story behind that! :openedeyewink:
Well, you know, I'm just a big fan of Thor in the MCU and figured why the hell not? Lol. Ok, that's not actually true. Lol. Just the faith resonated with me when I was in the Marine Corps and it made more sense than Christianity did. Especially things like Valhalla.
 
One other issue, is that the JW's have changed some of their major doctrinal beliefs since they were founded. It's wikipedia, so use some salt, but this article gives a pretty good rundown of what they have and haven't changed since they began publishing The Watchtower in 1879.

It sounds like some of the big changes they made somewhere along the line were:

1. We no longer think God is a Trinity.
2. We refuse to go to war and kill people - even if politicians say it is good.
3. We are so convinced of all this we are going to start telling everyone about it.

Maybe that Trinity thing got them mixed up with the Jews in the Nazis mind? Jews don't believe God is a Trinity either do they?
 

SsgtC

Banned
Maybe that Trinity thing got them mixed up with the Jews in the Nazis mind? Jews don't believe God is a Trinity either do they?
No, the Nazis hated them because of 2. They refused to put anything above God. That included service to the state. Which to the Nazis made them a threat
 
The Confessing Church(BK) was the official Nazi movement to form a single church. This church was known as the German Evangelical Church. It had basically no Theology beyond hating Jews, and rejecting Jesus' Jewishness. It utterly failed, mainly due to apathy and anger, as most Protestant Ministers opposed such blatant political interference, and most Laypeople didn't buy into it.

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Do you mean that the Confessing Church was the resistor against Nazism, whereas the German Evangelical Church was the Nazi puppet?

Anyway, to return to the focus of the thread, what impact do you think the absence of JWs would have on the various Christian denominations' attitudes towards Nazism?

Why are JW not a christian denomination?

Mainly the rejection of the divinity of Christ.

Also various other reasons summarised nicely by @The Professor:

  • Nontrinitarian - so Trinitarian Churches reject them
  • Restorationist - that is they seek to restore church governance like the early apostolic churches, so episcopalian churches tend to reject them
  • Millenarian - in that they believe the Second Coming us to some extent imminent, so churches that see the second coming as either metaphorical or apocalyptic tend to reject them


They are. Some denominations just refuse top acknowledge them as such because they interpret the Bible differently than they do and have different doctrinal beliefs

No, they aren't. I really don't want to turn this thread into a theological debate, but the Jehovah's Witnesses reject most of the foundation of the Christian faith, principally the deity of Christ. Being a 'follower of Jesus' does not qualify someone as a Christian. This cannot be ascribed to minor doctrinal differences as differentiates the various Protestant denominations, nor the rather more significant doctrinal and liturgical differences between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, for instance.

So, if we insist belief in the Trinity is necessary to be a Christian, it seems Jesus' Apostles and disciples for the first couple of hundred years weren't Christians either!

They would definitely have believed in the Trinity, from verses such as: "May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." (2 Corinthians 13:14) and "Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit." (Matthew 28:19). There are others.
 
"Christian" means "A follower of Christ"

So how would Christ have behaved if he lived in Germany in 1939?
Would he have cried: "Heil Hitler" as a greeting and joined the German Army if conscripted?
Or would he have refused, and ended up in a Concentration camp?

If we can decide on that, then we can analyse which religion was Christian in WW2.

Firstly, Christian doesn't mean just "follower of Christ", in English it means someone who adheres to the Christian religion, in Greek Christianos means Follower of Christ. However, this is incomplete as "ianos" indicates possession or ownership, like with a slave. Thus it is better translated as an "Adherent of Christ", this is partly because adherence is far stronger than followership, which conveys the stronger meaning of the Greek.

Secondly, your above point is a moot whataboutism for several reasons. If only for this or this guy or more generally the Kirchenkampf, kinda invalidates the idea that only Jehovah's resisted, and ignores the fact that the Catholic Church itself was responsible for the slowing down of Aktion T4, and part of the reason for the total secrecy of the Death Camps. The example itself makes little sense, what part of conscription is voluntary, and considering the fact that most Churches have accepted the idea of adhering to secular principles when they aren't totally out of line. Which considering the fact that the Churches feared communism as much if not more than everyone else, is kind of necessary, i.e. we need the Germans to defeat the worse enemy.

Thirdly, you act like Christian is this zero sum game, where people are more or less Christian based on their actions. Very few actual Christians would adhere to this idea, everyone is flawed and everyone fails it is in human nature. No more simple is just an easy cut off. Do you believe in certain things yes, then you are a Christian, if not then no you aren't a Christian.

To answer your question, I consider a religion to be Christian if they believe Jesus to be the Christ and Messiah, to believe that he died for their sins and if they actively try to live by Jesus' teachings. I put no stock in whether they consider "God" to be a singular being (i.e. Jehovah) or a Trinity. Neither do I care if they subscribe to any particular creed issued by man.

I mean okay thats an incredibly general definition, I mean Islam is just "died for their sins" away from being applicable under this. It kind of works as a definition however the issue becomes about the "teachings" I mean for one thing Jehovah's don't even fit that, using just the Bible John 8:58, where Jesus directly quotes God in the Old testament, and uses the "I am", there by indicating that he is God.

Maybe that Trinity thing got them mixed up with the Jews in the Nazis mind? Jews don't believe God is a Trinity either do they?

Okay, this is strangely insulting to Nazis, in implying they can't understand what a Jew is.

Sorry, I'm not quite sure what you're saying. Do you mean that the Confessing Church was the resistor against Nazism, whereas the German Evangelical Church was the Nazi puppet?

The Confessing Church was the movement to oppose the Nazis, and the GEC was the Puppet, sorry if I worded that poorly. Martin Niemoller was in the Confessing Church.

Anyway, to return to the focus of the thread, what impact do you think the absence of JWs would have on the various Christian denominations' attitudes towards Nazism?

I don't really think it would have much of an effect. JW's are by any reasonable measure a cult, and as a result of this their contact with outsiders is limited at best. This means that they might serve as a Boogeyman, but really without any great strength, or size, behind them they weren't feared. As a result they did little to influence the mainstream, and the mainstream did little to them. As a result, while some people cheered on the persecution, most were mainly apathetic, and saw them at best as fellow travellers to Communism.
 

SsgtC

Banned
I mean okay thats an incredibly general definition, I mean Islam is just "died for their sins" away from being applicable under this. It kind of works as a definition however the issue becomes about the "teachings" I mean for one thing Jehovah's don't even fit that, using just the Bible John 8:58, where Jesus directly quotes God in the Old testament, and uses the "I am", there by indicating that he is God.
Not quite, as Islam holds Mohammed to be above Jesus as a Prophet. That kind of precludes them from being Christian in my opinion.

As for your quote from John, that wasn't a claim to divinity. Read the entirety of John, Chapter 8. It was a lengthy argument between Jesus and the Pharisees. In the verse you mentioned, that was Jesus responding to them that he had in fact seen Abraham because he had existed as God's Son for millennia before he came to earth. Obviously, I am way simplifying that chapter, but the context in which things are said matters.
 
To answer your question, I consider a religion to be Christian if they believe Jesus to be the Christ and Messiah, . . .

I believe that is the answer: Christian = Jesus is Christ (messiah) -- everything thing that follows is just one denomination or another.

Challenging the other guy's extrapolation as a false doctrine, seems to make the first guy's beliefs, in his own mind, more legit.

But if you accept Christ as your savior (which is what I believe all Christians agree on) than that is it, your in as a Christian, all the rest are just personal extrapolations that gained followers.

I think maybe what I just wrote is gnostic? I also think (I am pretty ignorant on this topic) that the follower types found these these gnostic guys threatening and pretty much wiped them out early on.

It took 1,700 years for the gnostic belief to finally return via the 'free will' doctrine of the American First Great Awakening, only to have that enlightenment result in new teams being formed anyway, who then once again started to argue over mere extrapolations. e.g. full immersion and the such.

But all this is just my opinion, feel free to rip this post apart! I'm just an outsider looking in, with not a whole bunch of interest . . . except maybe when they knock on the door.

(Ironically I live in a town called "Ave Maria" and they do on occasion knock on the door. The town of Ave Maria, is/was Monahan's (Domino Pizza) Catholic experiment town, which went belly-up with 2008 recession; they had to start letting the hedons like me so they could tax us, and boy do they tax us. There are lots of pro-life licence plates and front lawn (Virgin Mary) statues about.)

Can someone answer a question: is Luke the only gospel that mentions the 'virgin birth' or are there other references in the New Testament?
 
They are. But some people insist that they aren't because they don't accept the Trinity doctrine. Instead they teach that there is one God, Jehovah. That Jesus is not God, but is God's son who was sent to Earth to redeem all mankind. And that the Holy Spirit is God's active force, not a separate being. They also don't believe in the immortality of the soul. Probably one of the biggest things though, is that they reject the cross. They teach that Jesus was impaled on a simple upright stake. From a Medical standpoint, they're probably correct. From a theological standpoint, it shouldn't really matter what he died on, just that you accept that he died for your sins.
JWs, while scary, are also immensely interesting when it comes to theology.
 
Knew more than a fair few Christians at college that went into becoming ministers/clerics because mom and dad were still stuck in a time loop where a minister had power/authority only second to a politician in my home country. So the kids were guilted into becoming a minister when what they really wanted was to be a physiotherapist/biokeniticist/archaeologist/electrical engineer.


Oh yeah I know, I was just pointing out something more specific.

You have no idea how terrifying it really can be to go knocking on strangers doors to tell them about relgion. First of all I knew damn good and well already most of them probably didn't wanna hear it, those who did were shutins, lonely, or you catch someone at just the right moment of despair in their life.

And then you've got the, they'll let you in to criticize you ones, or to try and witness to you, like life is a Jack Chick tract, you're gonna tell me your bullshit and I'm just magically instantly change a lifetime of faith.

The fear that you never know, is this guy possibly a Jeffrey Dalmer.
 
Oh yeah I know, I was just pointing out something more specific
You have no idea how terrifying it really can be to go knocking on strangers doors to tell them about relgion. First of all I knew damn good and well already most of them probably didn't wanna hear it, those who did were shutins, lonely, or you catch someone at just the right moment of despair in their life.

And then you've got the, they'll let you in to criticize you ones, or to try and witness to you, like life is a Jack Chick tract, you're gonna tell me your bullshit and I'm just magically instantly change a lifetime of faith.

The fear that you never know, is this guy possibly a Jeffrey Dalmer.

I would think the last danger (Jeffrey Dalmer) shouldn't really be a threat you need to worry about. You all never go on these excursions without many people knowing where you are; serial killers are bright enough to know that Christians at the front door are not safe targets, they know someone will come looking. You would probably be in more danger, in a highway diner, pitching Christianity to a random long-haul truck driver. That conversation has a higher possibility of you disappearing into the night than banging on a serial killer's front door.
 
I would think the last danger (Jeffrey Dalmer) shouldn't really be a threat you need to worry about. You all never go on these excursions without many people knowing where you are; serial killers are bright enough to know that Christians at the front door are not safe targets, they know someone will come looking. You would probably be in more danger, in a highway diner, pitching Christianity to a random long-haul truck driver. That conversation has a higher possibility of you disappearing into the night than banging on a serial killer's front door.


I was in some pretty rural areas, but yeah that's true. I'd just watched to much criminal minds. :)
 
I was in some pretty rural areas, but yeah that's true. I'd just watched to much criminal minds. :)

I do think it dangerous, and think one should not do it! You could interrupt a domestic quarrel about to go violent; that possibility scares most cops. And there is at least another half-dozen very realistic possibilities that could put you in danger. We don't need something as 'romanticized' (extreme) as a serial killer to get you hurt. Stupid people with pit bulls is another . . . (not that all pit bull owners are stupid, but there are some who can't control their dogs. They're the stupid ones I mean.)
 
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