WI: No Jehovah's witnesses.

For those curious, 1914 is still significant to Jehovah's Witnesses according to one of their tracts that they used to hand out:

"John says that 'by inspiration' he was transported forward in time to 'the Lord's day". What is this 'day'? A careful study of Bible prophecies, including Jesus's own prophecy regarding the last days, reveals that 'the Lord's day' began in the history-making year 1914, yes, within this generation! So it was in 1914 that Jesus returned invisibly, without public fanfare and with only his faithful servants being aware of his return. In that year Jehovah gave Jesus the command to go subduing in the midst of his enemies!" (The Greatest Man Who Ever Lived)
 

SsgtC

Banned
Various things, chief among them the fact that they do not believe that Jesus is God. For a faith called Christianity, that's pretty fundamental. It's stated pretty clearly throughout the New Testament.
One thing, the New Testament actually makes no such claim. Instead, it pretty clearly says the opposite. For instance, in John 20:17, Jesus quite clearly tells Mary not to cling to him, as he has not ascended to his Father. He then goes on to say that, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." They're thinking is, "how can Jesus be God when he clearly says that he is ascending to his God?"
 
Mormon have to pick up the slack on knocking on people's doors.


To be honest its terrifying doing that, I served on my mission six years ago. Fuck that, I had already figured out Christianity its entirety is imaginary bullshit, but I wanted my parents to be proud. My name is fucking Nephi after all, my parents weren't expecting me to even ever consider anything less. So I went openly lied to people, listened to idiots tell me their imaginary bullshit which is mostly the same imaginary bullshit is somehow magically superior and more logical.

Sometimes they're nice, they want to save you, because apparently I believed in a counterfeit Jesus who died for my sins, you know even if I too came from a church that taught from the same KJV you're holding.

Idiots, eventually I just walked, couldn't do it anymore. Jesus probably never existed, and neither did the original Nephi, these are just stories, myths because people couldn't cope with not knowing.

In some parallel universe people might be standing here talking about Odin vs Zeus, its just a matter of who's imaginary friend got the most believers to unwittingly lie to their children about.

That Mormon knocking on your door, is generally still someone relatively fresh out of highschool, who's family expects them to do this, be nice, they might secretly be an atheist/agnostic doing this for momma and daddy, guilty.
 

SsgtC

Banned
To be honest its terrifying doing that, I served on my mission six years ago. Fuck that, I had already figured out Christianity its entirety is imaginary bullshit, but I wanted my parents to be proud. My name is fucking Nephi after all, my parents weren't expecting me to even ever consider anything less. So I went openly lied to people, listened to idiots tell me their imaginary bullshit which is mostly the same imaginary bullshit is somehow magically superior and more logical.

Sometimes they're nice, they want to save you, because apparently I believed in a counterfeit Jesus who died for my sins, you know even if I too came from a church that taught from the same KJV you're holding.

Idiots, eventually I just walked, couldn't do it anymore. Jesus probably never existed, and neither did the original Nephi, these are just stories, myths because people couldn't cope with not knowing.

In some parallel universe people might be standing here talking about Odin vs Zeus, its just a matter of who's imaginary friend got the most believers to unwittingly lie to their children about.

That Mormon knocking on your door, is generally still someone relatively fresh out of highschool, who's family expects them to do this, be nice, they might secretly be an atheist/agnostic doing this for momma and daddy, guilty.
Dude, you sound exactly like me. Lol. Except I was raised as a JW.
 
What if the founder of Jehovah's witnesses, Charles Taze Russell, died before he had a chance to found what would today be Known as Jehovah's witnesses. How would history be different?

One curious influence the Jehovah's Witnesses had was a rather unique stand they made in Nazi Germany. (This was 20 years after Russell had died - so not sure how much influence he actually had on this)

Here is a link to the Holocaust Museum on them: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005394

Basically, the JW's would not compromise their beliefs and support the Nazis.

They wouldn't give the "heil Hitler" greeting because they said it was worship. They refused to join the army because of the "thou shalt not kill" command. They wouldn't work in factories that were making weapons or supporting the war.
The Nazis had special Gestapo units dedicated to trying to stamp them out. Thousands ended up in concentration camps where they were the only religious organization that needed it's own badge. The Purple Triangle.
They were also unique in the concentration camps as the only group who could sign a release form if they renounced their beliefs. (Very few did so)

There were only a few thousand JW's in Germany at the time, so it was probably a negligible impact on weakening Nazi Germany. It tied up some SS and Gestapo, and starved the German military of a few thousand soldiers and workers.
However - what if the major Catholic and Protestant Churches had made a similar stand? Now that is a question.
 
(a view shared by many Christians, largely because of JWs' stubborn insistence that they are a Christian denomination, when they clearly aren't).

I mean I'm far from a Jehovah's Witness but how aren't they?

The most basic reason I normally see is due to the rejection of the Trinity, and or the rejection of the Nicene Creed. This is actually quite old, for example in the declaration of indulgence, and under Oliver Cromwell, you could be any religion except for a non-trinitarian, or Catholic under Oliver. This is primarily because Protestants have very little to unify them anymore, I mean the pope clearly isnt the Whore of Babylon, and Luther, Zwingli and Calvin's successors are all at each others throats theologically. This means where the Catholics can say, anyone outside us is a heretic or schismatic, the Protestants can't really think that way, if they wish to be tolerant, as they did in the past. This means that they unify around a few common denominators, these are usually things like the Lord's Prayer and the Nicene Creed. For people who reject the latter they will reject them as Christians

Various things, chief among them the fact that they do not believe that Jesus is God. For a faith called Christianity, that's pretty fundamental. It's stated pretty clearly throughout the New Testament.

One thing, the New Testament actually makes no such claim. Instead, it pretty clearly says the opposite. For instance, in John 20:17, Jesus quite clearly tells Mary not to cling to him, as he has not ascended to his Father. He then goes on to say that, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." They're thinking is, "how can Jesus be God when he clearly says that he is ascending to his God?"

I mean Isaiah 45:5, Isaiah 43:10, John 1:1, John 1:3, 2 Peter 1:1, Revelation 1:17-18. Peter, John, other John, and Paul all quite clearly say that Jesus is God. And the old Testament clearly says that there are no gods other than God. So unless you reject the Epistles, Revelation, something the Jehovah's clearly don't do, and all of John, you don't really have a leg to stand on. You could also make similar arguments about Matthew, due to Matthew 1:23, which while more ambiguous if included means that Non-trinitarians have to reject basically all but 3 Gospels, and the Book of Acts. Side note, Jehovah's don't believe in the crucifixion, they believed he was tied to an upright post, which I have never heard about being used as a punishment, and most historians will agree that the crucifixion is the only sure thing we know about Jesus' death.
 
That Mormon knocking on your door, is generally still someone relatively fresh out of highschool, who's family expects them to do this, be nice, they might secretly be an atheist/agnostic doing this for momma and daddy, guilty.

Knew more than a fair few Christians at college that went into becoming ministers/clerics because mom and dad were still stuck in a time loop where a minister had power/authority only second to a politician in my home country. So the kids were guilted into becoming a minister when what they really wanted was to be a physiotherapist/biokeniticist/archaeologist/electrical engineer.
 
However - what if the major Catholic and Protestant Churches had made a similar stand? Now that is a question.

Makes you wonder if Christianity wouldn't be in slightly better shape than it is. Think of all the martyrs Hitler would've made. He would come close to Nero or some other pre-Constantinian Roman emperor. Could make for an interesting POD
 
So it's less that they're not Christian just not Trinitarians.
Just quickly looking at their Wikipedia page, I see they don't celebrate Easter. It reminds me of how in the Misconceptoins thread recently, I went on about how ridiculous a the claims that some Ultra-Presbytians would be against it, just because the English name of the overall holiday season is based on the name of a goddess, who the only written records of is a Christian clergyman or Saint centuries ago who referenced how they USED to call it Easter, after the month which was named AFTER a goddess. This may be harping about a point, but Easter is pretty much the only time the New Testaments suggests some sort of time or solemnity or silence, etc. On other notes, it seems they think that secular society is under the control of a Satan, and how only the only way to solve everything is for the End Times. Of course this is stuff I am getting off the top of Wikipedia, so there may be more nuance, though one of the big issues seems to be repeatedly saying the end is nigh and then nothing happening. Groups like this used to be all over the place, and I imagine another takes its place, probably with many of the same membership.
 
One curious influence the Jehovah's Witnesses had was a rather unique stand they made in Nazi Germany. (This was 20 years after Russell had died - so not sure how much influence he actually had on this)

Here is a link to the Holocaust Museum on them: https://www.ushmm.org/wlc/en/article.php?ModuleId=10005394

Basically, the JW's would not compromise their beliefs and support the Nazis.

They wouldn't give the "heil Hitler" greeting because they said it was worship. They refused to join the army because of the "thou shalt not kill" command. They wouldn't work in factories that were making weapons or supporting the war.
The Nazis had special Gestapo units dedicated to trying to stamp them out. Thousands ended up in concentration camps where they were the only religious organization that needed it's own badge. The Purple Triangle.
They were also unique in the concentration camps as the only group who could sign a release form if they renounced their beliefs. (Very few did so)

There were only a few thousand JW's in Germany at the time, so it was probably a negligible impact on weakening Nazi Germany. It tied up some SS and Gestapo, and starved the German military of a few thousand soldiers and workers.
However - what if the major Catholic and Protestant Churches had made a similar stand? Now that is a question.
They tended to use them as servants in concentration camps, because they wouldn't run away.

Makes you wonder if Christianity wouldn't be in slightly better shape than it is. Think of all the martyrs Hitler would've made. He would come close to Nero or some other pre-Constantinian Roman emperor. Could make for an interesting POD
They did stand up against the euthanasia project, and plenty of church organizations in many countries stood against the Nazis. The Nazis paid lip service to them at times, privately despised them, and worked on exterminating basically everyone in a religious organization in Eastern Europe, though probably mostly due to wanting to get rid of all leaders and educators. In Hitler's Table Talks (keep in mind, these books were based on the compiling of Martin Bormann, and there were cmplaints of the publisher so far the translations not showing anyone th eoriginals, as well as putting n what Hitler's "would have" said) Hitler apparently was relieved his Reichsbishop plan haven't worked, as then the Protestants would have been like the Catholics in complaining about the brutalizing of people, or the mass murder of the elderly. Sometimes the Churches were kept in line, like in Belgium, by deporting those previously protected if they didn't keep quiet. As for martyrs, there are several saints who died in the Holocaust. I also recall a doctor, who might or might not have been a priest, who went with his orphanage to be gassed, when they tried letting him go since he had needed skills. In Warsaw they took all Christians of Jewish descent in one trainload, because they asked to stay together,
 
They are. But some people insist that they aren't because they don't accept the Trinity doctrine. Instead they teach that there is one God, Jehovah. That Jesus is not God, but is God's son who was sent to Earth to redeem all mankind. And that the Holy Spirit is God's active force, not a separate being. They also don't believe in the immortality of the soul. Probably one of the biggest things though, is that they reject the cross. They teach that Jesus was impaled on a simple upright stake. From a Medical standpoint, they're probably correct. From a theological standpoint, it shouldn't really matter what he died on, just that you accept that he died for your sins.

Those things you listed do preclude Jehovah's Witnesses from being regarded as Christians. There are some basic fundamentals which virtually all Christian denominations observe - most centrally the divinity of Christ - and the rejection of which places the group in question clearly outside of 'Christendom' (as it were).

One thing, the New Testament actually makes no such claim. Instead, it pretty clearly says the opposite. For instance, in John 20:17, Jesus quite clearly tells Mary not to cling to him, as he has not ascended to his Father. He then goes on to say that, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." They're thinking is, "how can Jesus be God when he clearly says that he is ascending to his God?"

The New Testament includes numerous claims of Jesus' divinity. Here are some examples (emphasis added):

"I and the Father are one.” (John 10:30)

"Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;" (Philippians 2:5-6)

"No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is Himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known." (John 1:18)

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." (John 1:1)

There are more.

So it's less that they're not Christian just not Trinitarians.

The problem is that Unitarians appear to blatantly ignore or disregard fundamental aspects of their own Scriptures. It is difficult to justify most Unitarian groups as Christian denominations for this reason, especially as they themselves frequently reject the Bible as divine revelation.

and plenty of church organizations in many countries stood against the Nazis.

Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the German Confessional Church the principle Protestant group in opposition to the Nazis? Perhaps in a world without Jehovah's Witnesses they play a bigger role, or at least have more recognition.

There tends to be a view that Catholics were more resistant to the Nazis than most Protestants. Whether this is true or not, I don't know - Father Tiso of Slovakia would be one counterexample. Anyway, would those who would have been JWs be more likely to be affiliated with Protestant denominations, or would they favour a different cult such as Mormonism?
 
Unless I'm mistaken, wasn't the German Confessional Church the principle Protestant group in opposition to the Nazis? Perhaps in a world without Jehovah's Witnesses they play a bigger role, or at least have more recognition.

There tends to be a view that Catholics were more resistant to the Nazis than most Protestants. Whether this is true or not, I don't know - Father Tiso of Slovakia would be one counterexample.

The Confessing Church(BK) was the official Nazi movement to form a single church. This church was known as the German Evangelical Church. It had basically no Theology beyond hating Jews, and rejecting Jesus' Jewishness. It utterly failed, mainly due to apathy and anger, as most Protestant Ministers opposed such blatant political interference, and most Laypeople didn't buy into it.

In comparison, the Catholic Church being more united was more easily able to oppose Nazism, and its policies. I mean they agreed with alot of the stuff about communists, and in some cases the colonisation of Poland, but were opposed to alot of the social stuff, like the deliberate targeting of the family. And then of course you do get Tiso, however he was largely an anomaly.
 
Aren't Mormons known for door-to-door evangelism too?
Quite a few evangelicals do the odd doorstep. The main reason they don't seems to be Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses making it less palatable.
If they're too irritating the best thing to do is invite them in and have a civil discussion about beliefs over a cuppa. Eventually they get discouraged or their superiors tell them to avoid you.
 
ww2 generally showed how little political leverage over Catholic world Pope had. Not only with Tiso-German Catholics were OK with extermination of Polish clergy and desacration of churches, Ukrainian Eastern rite Catholic priests blessed weapons, which were used to butcher Polish Catholics in Western Ukraine, and so on.
What is worth to note-Arthur Greiser, gauleiter of Warthegau (even among nazi gaulaiters this monster was known for his extreme cruelty) was seemingly anti-religious at all. The fact, that he executed Polish priests or send them to camps and changed churches into stabbles or warehouses is one thing-Poles were considered subhumans after all, but I've read, that he required German officials, send to Warthegau to promise, that the'll leave the Church and never rejoin it.
 
Honestly I can't see any real influx they have had on other faith, other than turning millenniumism into a joke, their theology beside that are fundamental pretty vanilla, it's not really something lending itself to ridicule outside some of their taboos, social isolationism and treatment of former members (where the reactions also tend to be more horror than that ridicule). The biggest difference are that the lack of Jehovah's Witnesses leave a empty niche in much of Europe, where they tend to be the door to door religious salesmen.
I have been told if you open the door while your naked, then the Jehovah's Witnesses won't return. ;)
 
I think that some Christians might take on the role of 'door-to-door' advocates ITTL. As a Christian myself, one reason (usually unspoken) why we tend to avoid knocking on people's doors is because we do not wish to be confused with Jehovah's Witnesses, who are widely perceived as irritating (a view shared by many Christians, largely because of JWs' stubborn insistence that they are a Christian denomination, when they clearly aren't).

However, Christian door-to-door-'ers' would probably be less annoying than JWs because most of us do not feel the need to 'pester' or revisit one household unreasonably often. At most you'd probably get a Bible verse and perhaps a free Bible, with a longer conversation only taking place if the household owner was interested.

I know not all JWs are annoying, and I know many Christians are. I'm just speaking in general terms.
Why are JW not a christian denomination?
 
They are. Some denominations just refuse top acknowledge them as such because they interpret the Bible differently than they do and have different doctrinal beliefs

I would ask as to what criterion you base being Christian on. Because as far as I can tell you aren't Christian, sorry if you are.
 
So it's less that they're not Christian just not Trinitarians.

Well said! ;)

The word "Trinity" isn't in the Bible.
According to the Encyclopedia Britannica "the doctrine developed gradually and was slowly adopted into the Church over several centuries and through many controversies."

So, if we insist belief in the Trinity is necessary to be a Christian, it seems Jesus' Apostles and disciples for the first couple of hundred years weren't Christians either!
 
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