WI: No Israel
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Ottoman Empire stays neutral in WW1, Central Powers still lose the war. Nazis come to power and WW2 happens along with the Holocaust. Ottoman Empire either joins the Allies ala Turkey OTL or maybe even earlier. Ottomans with neutrality in WW1 would be able to use all that Oil they have to get rich and reform to stabilize enough to survive. With Ottoman Empire stable, wealthy and a founding member of the UN (if they joined WW2 early I think they could even get a permanent seat in the Security Council) I don't think you could cut up an Israeli state from it.
@Gokbay, Or even better, the Ottomans join the British and French in WWI (a real possibility if Churchill hadn't stolen their dreadnoughts). Then with them as allies, there probably is no Balfour Declaration (a bit awkward to be seen giving away an ally's territory, after all).
Deleted member 94680
The Three Pashas had already decided to join the CP before Churchill gave the order to impound the Agincourt and Erin.
Well we do have the capacity to put the POD as early as 1900. So I think Ottomans on the Entente side is possible if somewhat implausible while neutral Ottomans are plausible.
Deleted member 94680
Entirely possible. But I was responding to erroneous supposition that Churchill’s impounding of the two ships was what tipped the Ottomans to the CP.
You’re far better off as having no Russia in the Entente as your PoD to get an Entente Ottoman Empire.
Wouldn't a Germany that didn't have to fight a two front war be able to defeat France and therefore likely win the war (with the British likely signing white peace)?
They could have Wyoming. Statistically speaking, America isn’t using it - lowest population density of any state that isn’t covered with eighty-three feet of goddamn snow.
The Territory of West Wyoming: A Jewish Homeland - sounds like a TL, with West Wyoming/Zion/Israel West being a Jewish Puerto Rico. It’s a tough sell but not entirely ASB; one possible POD is that America decides to settle Jewish refugees from the Holocaust, deciding they’re useful to the war effort.
The Territory of West Wyoming: A Jewish Homeland - sounds like a TL, with West Wyoming/Zion/Israel West being a Jewish Puerto Rico. It’s a tough sell but not entirely ASB; one possible POD is that America decides to settle Jewish refugees from the Holocaust, deciding they’re useful to the war effort.
I never said how much of a possibility it was, just that it was possible.
Judaism is absurdly thick-skinned as far as religions go. I’m aware of no other religious group that has suffered more shit at the hands of others throughout history and still managed to survive - nay, do quite well for itself. They would figure something out, homeland or no homeland.
There had to be at least one Jew at the Restaurant at the End of the Universe.
Deleted member 94680
Quite possible. The RN could always blockade them as OTL.
An Entente Ottoman Empire means a Central Powers Russia? There’s a lot of fighting to happen there though...
The problem is that converting to another religion ( or just dropping all religious/ cultural elements) doesn't really do anything to stop anti semites from going after you. Anti Semitism has been more racial then religious for at least a few hundred years. I mean there were entire churches for " Christian Jews" in the Warsaw ghetto.
you said
so even even without Central Power Russia it would be Neutral if we go for an Entente Ottoman Empire. So Germany would not have a two front war. They could defeat France and since WW1 wasn't as ideological a war as WW2 Britain would likely negotiate a peace instead of fighting to the end. This would probably butterfly the Holocaust, which we can't do as per the OP.
Deleted member 94680
No, I said the best bet for Entente Ottoman Empire is Central Powers Russia. That still means fighting in the Caucasus or some kind of Balkan bust up
The Copts were considered to be Arabs by Nasser and are Arabs, Islam is not a requirement to be an Arab.
This. Without a common enemy, there's actually very little that keeps the Middle East united. There's massive religious division between Shia and Sunni Muslims and between Muslims and Arab Christians and between Wahabi Muslims and secularist Muslims and etc. There's racial tension between Arabs and Copts and between Arabs and Persians and between Persians and Turks and between Turks and Kurds and etc. There's massive political divisons and some want socialism and some want Baathism and some want a republic and come want a caliphate and we can go on and on. It's roughly analogous to old Europe
The Scenario that seems most likely to me is that the Yom-Kipur war of October 1976 would be called of and delayed until Pesach 1977 (2 to 10th April) If this time was used for:
-training
-integrating smokescreens into the tactical repertoire of the syrians. (A big reason for the syrian failure in the Golan heights was Attacking over overseeable terrain against entrenched defenders)
-aquisition of additional SAM-Systems
Also for Pesach more people travelling to visit the family to celebrate, whilst on Yom Kipur you have the roads are free, the Soldiers and Reservists are either at home or in the synagoge close to their home, allowing for faster alerting and mobilsation on this date.
If then they still achieve suprise, Egypt doesnt leave SAM-Cover and better combined arms coordination exists (artillery deliverd smokescreen against entrenched defenders), the Arabs have a chance.
When then the Israelis botcs the depolyment of their nukes (most stupid scenario using it against an enemy capital instead of the enemy army, more likely they miss a tactical target by failing a toss bombing attempt. see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toss_bombing and https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheSumOfAllFears).
If the Israelis use their nukes, their is a high chance of retaliation against civilians (though civilians in this war are genrally fucked if they meet hostile forces. Even if the IDF is said Hostile force, if they have to carry out Counterattacks into Syrian/Egyptian Mainland, especialy if the Arabs had a go at the Israeli Civilians beforehand.)
-training
-integrating smokescreens into the tactical repertoire of the syrians. (A big reason for the syrian failure in the Golan heights was Attacking over overseeable terrain against entrenched defenders)
-aquisition of additional SAM-Systems
Also for Pesach more people travelling to visit the family to celebrate, whilst on Yom Kipur you have the roads are free, the Soldiers and Reservists are either at home or in the synagoge close to their home, allowing for faster alerting and mobilsation on this date.
If then they still achieve suprise, Egypt doesnt leave SAM-Cover and better combined arms coordination exists (artillery deliverd smokescreen against entrenched defenders), the Arabs have a chance.
When then the Israelis botcs the depolyment of their nukes (most stupid scenario using it against an enemy capital instead of the enemy army, more likely they miss a tactical target by failing a toss bombing attempt. see also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toss_bombing and https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Literature/TheSumOfAllFears).
If the Israelis use their nukes, their is a high chance of retaliation against civilians (though civilians in this war are genrally fucked if they meet hostile forces. Even if the IDF is said Hostile force, if they have to carry out Counterattacks into Syrian/Egyptian Mainland, especialy if the Arabs had a go at the Israeli Civilians beforehand.)
Back in IIRC the 1970s, I saw a political cartoon which showed figures representing a dozen or so Arab countries and factions: Egypt, Libya, Jordan, Palestinians, Morocco, some recent rebel group, etc. Each figure brandished a dagger as they chased each other around in a circle. The caption was "Forward against Israel!" (IIRC it was from an Arab source.)
In a timeline where, for instance, not only does the Holocaust happen but Israel is defeated during the 1948 war, the Jews are going to be a hugely demoralized people. With the latter likely wiping the state of Israel off the map and more ethnic cleansing accompanying it, the Jewish will have lost not only more Jews but their promised homeland. Something is going to have to give for the Jews (which I am myself) in one way or form and it won’t be pretty. Even in the rest of the Middle East, the expulsion of Jews from countries like Egypt, Iraq, Jordan, and Syria may only be delayed 5-10 years because of the rise of Pan-Arabism (which targeted foreigners and Jews were among the foreigners). Israel was only part of the reason Pan-Arabism existed OTL.
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