How would history look like if the Holy Roman Empire never existed? Would there be a Kingdom of Germany and Kingdom of Italy in its place? Or would the be several kingdoms? Please discuss!!!
How would history look like if the Holy Roman Empire never existed? Would there be a Kingdom of Germany and Kingdom of Italy in its place? Or would the be several kingdoms? Please discuss!!!
Depends on what you mean by "No HRE"
I mean, do we start measuring the HRE with 800 and Charlemagne, or with Otto I?
Which one will determine what's in its place.
With Otto I.
Depends on what you mean by "No HRE"
I mean, do we start measuring the HRE with 800 and Charlemagne, or with Otto I?
Which one will determine what's in its place.
Most probable is to have a Burgundy-like fragmentation.
Kingdom of Italy, thanks to Burgundy, would be cut for an effective control from Western Francia. It does have the possibility to live on itself, and with one piece, with great feudal lords tough able to not only rule their own land alone buy able to have a great word to say in the kingdom's rule.
A lot like Lombardic Kingdom if you want. The pope presence in Italy usually gave a stability to the Italian king, as the pope sacred them personally, giving them a good legitimacy.
Eventually, the consulate/republican-ruled city would pop and could benefit from it to appears as in OTL (under the protectorate of the said great feudal lords).
In Germany, the kingdom of Germany stricto sensu would as well stay in one piece, forming a HRE-like structure but eventually more likely to unite itself as did Western Francia OTL especially if parts as Saxony "leave" the kingdom.
Lotharingia (that depcits the land between Switzerland and Saxony, not Lothat I land) have not the possibility, in the long term, to form a state of its own. It could turn to western or easter Francia.
Don you mean that the kingdom of Italy will be as divided as Burgundy historically became (earlier than Northern Italy)?
Both had tried, but will the pope crown a non-carolingian? Bosonids managed to get more present in Burgundy as it was a march-like territory between Aquitaine and Italy.After the Carolingians until Otto I intervened historically the kingdom of Italy became contested by various nobles.
Maybe the Anscarids (house of Ivrea) or Bosonids might establish themselves as kings of Italy.
Without HRE and the subsequent development allowing outside expansion of german lords, the feudal wars will likely continue in the same degree they did in France.However I don't see, why parts of 'Saxony' would leave the German kingdom; the Liudolfing or Ottonian dynasty was the Saxon dynasty, which together with the traditional Royal powerbase, since East Francia, Franconia had a powerbase in Saxony.
The issue there is that the eventual take on Burgundy and especially Italy managed to put german/frankish lords ambitions far from imperial "cores" (sorry about the vocabulary, I can't find the right words in english).If anything a German kingdom not having to worry about too much about issues south of the Alps will be much more successful in Christianizing the Wends in the north east.
Yes and no.Furthermore whether or not the kingship will become hereditary (most likely it eventually will), but this kingdom will have an easier time to keep (some) (domestic) authority.
The position of Holy Roman Emperor or rather (Catholic) emperor of the Romans (in the West) will develop differently.
An rather easy way to abort the HRE would be the early end of the Ottonian dynasty before it begins.
Since kings still fought in battles in that time, this is not difficult. If Arnulf of Bavaria managges to defeat Henry the Fowler in 921, we might see the whole german Kingdom fall apart into the stem duchies:
~ the Luitpoldings in Bavaria, slowly expanding down the Danube and sometimes meddling in Friuli/Verona;
~ the Hunfridings in Swabia, occassionally clashing with Upper Burgundy and Lombardy;
~ the Conradines in Franconia and Thuringia, trying to go eastward of the Saale;
~ the Liudolfings in Saxony, with an obvious conflict against Obotrites and Veleti and the potentia to engage in Scandinavian affairs
~ the Reginarids in an Ardenne-centred Lotharingia who will probably fight a lot against the West Frankish/French kingdom.
Actually, if they keep Aix-la-chapelle/Aachen and score a few prestigious victories over the French kings (Hugues Capet will be probably be butterflied away), they might successfully claim a rather hollow kingship of the Germans.
OTOH, the Bavarians and Swabians are in the best position to meddle directly in Italian affairs and even visit the pope and ask nicely for his recognition as ... something.