WI No HRE

How would history look like if the Holy Roman Empire never existed? Would there be a Kingdom of Germany and Kingdom of Italy in its place? Or would the be several kingdoms? Please discuss!!!
 
How would history look like if the Holy Roman Empire never existed? Would there be a Kingdom of Germany and Kingdom of Italy in its place? Or would the be several kingdoms? Please discuss!!!

Depends on what you mean by "No HRE"

I mean, do we start measuring the HRE with 800 and Charlemagne, or with Otto I?

Which one will determine what's in its place.
 
Most probable is to have a Burgundy-like fragmentation.

Kingdom of Italy, thanks to Burgundy, would be cut for an effective control from Western Francia. It does have the possibility to live on itself, and with one piece, with great feudal lords tough able to not only rule their own land alone buy able to have a great word to say in the kingdom's rule.

A lot like Lombardic Kingdom if you want. The pope presence in Italy usually gave a stability to the Italian king, as the pope sacred them personally, giving them a good legitimacy.

Eventually, the consulate/republican-ruled city would pop and could benefit from it to appears as in OTL (under the protectorate of the said great feudal lords).

In Germany, the kingdom of Germany stricto sensu would as well stay in one piece, forming a HRE-like structure but eventually more likely to unite itself as did Western Francia OTL especially if parts as Saxony "leave" the kingdom.

Lotharingia (that depcits the land between Switzerland and Saxony, not Lothat I land) have not the possibility, in the long term, to form a state of its own. It could turn to western or easter Francia.
 

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Depends on what you mean by "No HRE"

I mean, do we start measuring the HRE with 800 and Charlemagne, or with Otto I?

Which one will determine what's in its place.

That's the critical point. At what point does it not form? If Charlemagne forms his empire, which IIRC was technically the reformation of the Roman Empire in the minds of people when Charlemagne was crowned, then it exists, but then if it collapses if say all his heirs die does that count against the OP?

Fragmentation without the HRE structure firmly in place would likely still have some sort of residual effect of centralization on various parts of the former Empire. Charlemagne Christianized his realm and eliminated hostile local nobility and pretty much tore up the threats to the East (mainly the Avars), leaving the realm to the nobles he put in place upon his death if he had no heirs. So expect a bunch of wars for control by factions and powerful individuals. Italy is likely to be separate from Germany in the aftermath, while the area north of the Alps is up in the air. Who knows how that would pan out, but likely there would be the nucleus for at least two and probably more future major states.
 
Most probable is to have a Burgundy-like fragmentation.

Kingdom of Italy, thanks to Burgundy, would be cut for an effective control from Western Francia. It does have the possibility to live on itself, and with one piece, with great feudal lords tough able to not only rule their own land alone buy able to have a great word to say in the kingdom's rule.

A lot like Lombardic Kingdom if you want. The pope presence in Italy usually gave a stability to the Italian king, as the pope sacred them personally, giving them a good legitimacy.

Eventually, the consulate/republican-ruled city would pop and could benefit from it to appears as in OTL (under the protectorate of the said great feudal lords).

In Germany, the kingdom of Germany stricto sensu would as well stay in one piece, forming a HRE-like structure but eventually more likely to unite itself as did Western Francia OTL especially if parts as Saxony "leave" the kingdom.

Lotharingia (that depcits the land between Switzerland and Saxony, not Lothat I land) have not the possibility, in the long term, to form a state of its own. It could turn to western or easter Francia.

Don you mean that the kingdom of Italy will be as divided as Burgundy historically became (earlier than Northern Italy)?

After the Carolingians until Otto I intervened historically the kingdom of Italy became contested by various nobles.
Maybe the Anscarids (house of Ivrea) or Bosonids might establish themselves as kings of Italy.

The kingdom of Burgundy during the time of Otto I was ruled by the elder house of Welf and thus independent too.

Lotharingia (named after king Lothar II and not his father emperor Lothar I) was by this time incorporated in the East Frankish > German kingdom. And as the part of middle Francia, which mostly belonged to the historic Frankish Austrasia (more Germanic than Neustria) it could very well stay a part of it. Lotharingia might have developed independently, but that would require an earlier PoD under established independent kings.

However I don't see, why parts of 'Saxony' would leave the German kingdom; the Liudolfing or Ottonian dynasty was the Saxon dynasty, which together with the traditional Royal powerbase, since East Francia, Franconia had a powerbase in Saxony.
If anything a German kingdom not having to worry about too much about issues south of the Alps will be much more successful in Christianizing the Wends in the north east.
Furthermore whether or not the kingship will become hereditary (most likely it eventually will), but this kingdom will have an easier time to keep (some) (domestic) authority.

The position of Holy Roman Emperor or rather (Catholic) emperor of the Romans (in the West) will develop differently. Historically between the Carolingians and the Ottonians the Pope did grant this title to regional weaker rulers in Italy. Unless the kingdom of Italy gets its act together the Pope might be inclined to bestow this honor on the king of France or the German king. Either more rulers of previously Carolingian kingdoms become eligible; or not the German kingdom, but the kingdom of France or Italy becomes the emperor.
OTOH the office of emperor might develop differently too.
 
Don you mean that the kingdom of Italy will be as divided as Burgundy historically became (earlier than Northern Italy)?

No, I meant that with no HRE, the Germany+Italy+Lotharingia would probably know the same kind of fragmentation than Burgundy : a local noble with enough power takes the crown of a territory. Then the "rightful" king makes one or two campaigns, maybe can be sucessful but ultimately it will be lost for his kingdom.


After the Carolingians until Otto I intervened historically the kingdom of Italy became contested by various nobles.
Maybe the Anscarids (house of Ivrea) or Bosonids might establish themselves as kings of Italy.
Both had tried, but will the pope crown a non-carolingian? Bosonids managed to get more present in Burgundy as it was a march-like territory between Aquitaine and Italy.

Still, it can happen one of these, or another take the power in Italy but maybe not as king but more as one of the great feudal lords (in Lombard Neustria by exemple)

However I don't see, why parts of 'Saxony' would leave the German kingdom; the Liudolfing or Ottonian dynasty was the Saxon dynasty, which together with the traditional Royal powerbase, since East Francia, Franconia had a powerbase in Saxony.
Without HRE and the subsequent development allowing outside expansion of german lords, the feudal wars will likely continue in the same degree they did in France.
I precise that, by "leaving" I meant escaping in the fact the royal power while being still part of the kingdom (as Aquitaine, Catalonia, Flanders, etc did in France). It never prevented the french nobles to keep their powerbase in lands kept in the facts by the king ,except Aquitains, but that's for specific reasons in the contestation against Robertians (If Otton doesn't manage to become king of Germany, by exemple if Eberhard manage to keep the crown for himself, Saxe could escape actual royal autority).


If anything a German kingdom not having to worry about too much about issues south of the Alps will be much more successful in Christianizing the Wends in the north east.
The issue there is that the eventual take on Burgundy and especially Italy managed to put german/frankish lords ambitions far from imperial "cores" (sorry about the vocabulary, I can't find the right words in english).
Slavic lands wouldn't be a comparable benefit for them. But without Italy and if Hungrese raids continue in the eastern margraviate, it could be indeed the sole solution. In the contrary, Pannonia could be a more favoured way of expansion.

Furthermore whether or not the kingship will become hereditary (most likely it eventually will), but this kingdom will have an easier time to keep (some) (domestic) authority.
Yes and no.
Yes : Germany alone would be managable, when Italy is a bit too far for being trated as the same ensemble critically with the Alps preventing a direct road.
No : without possibilities of expansion in Italy, german lords would be more quickly in competition with the king.

The position of Holy Roman Emperor or rather (Catholic) emperor of the Romans (in the West) will develop differently.

I think the imperial title would simply disappear, or maybe would escape papal hands in this case : the pope gave the imperal crown to kings with the less probablity to annoy his own ambitions in Italy, sure. But he gave it aslo to rulers able to defend this same interests.
Western Francia isn't really in the position of having the imperial title (you would need the king to make him being obeyed further than 150 km).
 
An rather easy way to abort the HRE would be the early end of the Ottonian dynasty before it begins.
Since kings still fought in battles in that time, this is not difficult. If Arnulf of Bavaria managges to defeat Henry the Fowler in 921, we might see the whole german Kingdom fall apart into the stem duchies:

~ the Luitpoldings in Bavaria, slowly expanding down the Danube and sometimes meddling in Friuli/Verona;
~ the Hunfridings in Swabia, occassionally clashing with Upper Burgundy and Lombardy;
~ the Conradines in Franconia and Thuringia, trying to go eastward of the Saale;
~ the Liudolfings in Saxony, with an obvious conflict against Obotrites and Veleti and the potentia to engage in Scandinavian affairs
~ the Reginarids in an Ardenne-centred Lotharingia who will probably fight a lot against the West Frankish/French kingdom.
Actually, if they keep Aix-la-chapelle/Aachen and score a few prestigious victories over the French kings (Hugues Capet will be probably be butterflied away), they might successfully claim a rather hollow kingship of the Germans.

OTOH, the Bavarians and Swabians are in the best position to meddle directly in Italian affairs and even visit the pope and ask nicely for his recognition as ... something.
 
An rather easy way to abort the HRE would be the early end of the Ottonian dynasty before it begins.
Since kings still fought in battles in that time, this is not difficult. If Arnulf of Bavaria managges to defeat Henry the Fowler in 921, we might see the whole german Kingdom fall apart into the stem duchies:

~ the Luitpoldings in Bavaria, slowly expanding down the Danube and sometimes meddling in Friuli/Verona;
~ the Hunfridings in Swabia, occassionally clashing with Upper Burgundy and Lombardy;
~ the Conradines in Franconia and Thuringia, trying to go eastward of the Saale;
~ the Liudolfings in Saxony, with an obvious conflict against Obotrites and Veleti and the potentia to engage in Scandinavian affairs
~ the Reginarids in an Ardenne-centred Lotharingia who will probably fight a lot against the West Frankish/French kingdom.
Actually, if they keep Aix-la-chapelle/Aachen and score a few prestigious victories over the French kings (Hugues Capet will be probably be butterflied away), they might successfully claim a rather hollow kingship of the Germans.

OTOH, the Bavarians and Swabians are in the best position to meddle directly in Italian affairs and even visit the pope and ask nicely for his recognition as ... something.

IMHO I don't see the German kingdom fall apart, but like IOTL early Capetian France the actually power and authority of the German king will be weak. You might see a different dynasty, which could be weaker than the OTL Liudolfings.

OTOH the kingdom faces various challenges on its eastern (a bit of the northern borders) borders, especially the Magyars are a challenge, but the Wends offer more opportunities too.

However I do agree on the ambitions and regions of interest of the various stem duchies.
 
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