WI: No Holocaust

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archaeogeek

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You might and afew leftie Anglophobes would but the rest of us wouldn't probably
This ridiculous meme that I'm an anglophobe is getting really tired and old: it's deflecting nationalist bullshit to avoid criticism of your country's history.

On the latter point: agreed, the holocaust represents a "mere" 10-15% of the deaths of the war.
 
If the Nazis don't implement the "Final Solution" for the Jews, I think it would be quite likely that there wouldn't be any genocide in the east, either, with similar reasoning; why save the resources necessary to commit one genocide only to then waste them on another?

What I'm curious about is how the aftermath would look like. Does Germany still lose Austria and all lands east of the Oder? Or do they get a deal more akin to Japan? OTL painting themselves as "Hitler's First Victim" allowed the Austrians absolve themselves of all guilt regarding the Holocaust; would they still feel the need to do this without any Holocaust-blame to go around?
Or would the Allies simply stand aside when the USSR ethnically cleanses everything German east of the Oder? OTL they pretty much just told the Germans; "Tough luck. But you started the whole 'genocide/ethnic cleansing' business."
For that matter, would the lack of an attempted genocide in the East have any impact on Stalin's policies regarding the defeated Germany?

- Kelenas
 
The only way to actually avoid a German genocide is to have the Battle of Moscow turn into the complete annihilation of Army Group Center. The resulting annihilation of a large German army group puts German military power across the USSR into turmoil and the resulting Soviet advances and German strategic dilemma butterflies anything like the Wannsee Conference until the front line is stabilized, which for Germany is going to hurt worse than the Soviet victory at Moscow no matter what it does.

The shorter WWII and greater Soviet success prevents Germany from having large numbers of Jews to repress and the sequence that turned repression into genocide. Of course that replaces Nazi slavery with Soviet freedom.....:(
 
Eugenics would certainly have less negative ideas associated with it and have more credibility. This No Holocaust TL may see genetic research ahead of our own, maybe with stem cell treatments earlier as well.
 

archaeogeek

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Eugenics would certainly have less negative ideas associated with it and have more credibility. This No Holocaust TL may see genetic research ahead of our own, maybe with stem cell treatments earlier as well.

Eugenics =/= Genetics, in fact it's seriously bullshit - if anything, holding on to eugenics could significantly, massively, majorly slow down real science. It's the ether and the alchemy of genetics. Natural selection is not teleological. end of.
 
Eugenics =/= Genetics, in fact it's seriously bullshit - if anything, holding on to eugenics could significantly, massively, majorly slow down real science. It's the ether and the alchemy of genetics. Natural selection is not teleological. end of.

Correct. But it's possible that some type of "human breeding program" could continue with less stigma around it, amongst the impending discoveries of genetics and so on. Genetics and Eugenics could conceivably have a back-and-forth as they discover more and more about the Human genome through both methods.

It might take longer, but if handled in a certain way, it could help with testing concepts in the early stages of genetic research. Granted, this is still highly amoral.
 
Nazis would just be remembered for being ambitious expansionist murderous douchebags with some slight anti-semitic leanings instead of genocidally ambitious expansionist murderous douchebags with severe anti-semtic leanings.

So they'd probably be seen more like the Imperial Japanese in popular conscience.
 
You know, Russia actually set aside part of Siberia as a "Jewish autonomous oblast" and tried to get Jews to come their as some sort of Communist answer to Zionism. So, do you think that, ITTL, they would drop the Siberia project and set up a Jewish Oblast/Republic in some part of Poland/Belarus that actually has a large Jewish population?
The main problem with that though is that it's in the arse end of nowhere and below freezing for roughly half the year, with three of them getting into double digit minus celsius temperatures.

Just for a laugh supposing if because of the holocaust not occuring Israel wasn't created as a solely Jewish state Stalin offered them the Crimean peninsula instead? Right after the war large numbers of the local population were deported and it was converted from the Crimean Autonomous Soviet Socialist Republic it had been for 24 years to a regular oblast of Russia. Has the advantages of drumming up a replacement population, great international PR and even then they get to keep all the Yids isolated on their own island (from what I've heard racism and anti-semitism were fairly endemic in Russia back then).
 
Medical advancement would have been set back by a certain degree if the Holocaust had never occurred. As achingly horrible as they were, the human experiments the Nazis conducted in Auschwitz and other camps contributed a good deal to the body of medical knowledge. Our current understanding of various diseases, STDs, poisons, and the effects of a wide number of extreme conditions on the human body, simply would not be as advanced as they currently are without the horribly immoral benefit of a wide pool of test subjects to work with, unbound by ethical restrictions.
 
The Germans were originally considering just carting off all the Jews to other countries. If they had done that then a holocaust wouldnt of been necessary, but alot more anti-semitism would of risen.
The Nazi's would also of been seen more like the Germans in WW1 then a pure evil nation as they are in OTL.
 
It might have even helped the Germans to win the war considering how many Jewish scientists there were (like Albert Einstein) plus how many Jews ran businesses well.
 
So, how does this affect the postwar world? From my readings into Israeli history, I understand Zionism wasn't a majority opinion among Jews until the shock of Auschwitz convinced them they weren't safe in Western society-so does Israel get established in this TL? If not, what would be the effects of Poland, Belarus, and Hungary (not to mention Germany) continuing to be large centers of Jewish population and culture after the war? How would the Jewish populations of these countries react to the gradual Communist-ization after 1945, and what knock-on effects might we see on say, Polish or Hungarian culture?

1. Let's put it this way. Most jews tried and succeeded in fleeing Germany before WWII. If the Nazis enact similliar or worse legistlation in Poland and in their center European allies as OTL, then even if entire populations are not sent to death camps the survivors are going to want to leave. If Israel is not an option, many of them will make their way into the USSR- as 1.2 Million did following the Nazi conquest of Western and Central Poland (Of course, Stalin forcibly resettled 250,000 of them, including most of their elites in Gulags. They were the lucky onese since the others mostly died after Barbarossa)

2. OTL, jews who survived the Holcaust were simply unable to regain their social position or property in Poland, Hungary, Romania, etc. Their neighbors continued to target them in acts of individual and mob violence even after a communist regime was imposed. As a result, most, even those who were non-zionist, left.

3. Stalinism was really, really bad for Jews. between 1952-1956, Stalin launched an anti-Semitic campaign agaisnt Jews in both Central Europe and the USSR which so tens of thousands sent to the Gulags. More Jews, no Holocaust precedent=greater persecution.

4. Insofar as Israel is concerned a common claim is that Israel was founded by Holocaust survivors. That claim does not hold water. the 600,000 Jews living in Israel in 1948 and got there before the Holocaust began. Regardless of w

5. In the interwar peiod Zionism and Jewish nationalism (not exactly the same though they overlapped) was in fact the dominant political current among Jews. Likewise, prior to the Bolshevik revolution, there were 300,000 registered zionists as opposed to 30,000 Bundists (Jewish Socialist party favoring cultual autonomy), around 900 Bolsheviks, and 3,000 or so SRs and mensheviks. So Zionism was not quite as peripherial in Eastern Europe as you might think- it is in the democratic west that it was't all that popular: but that's not where most Jews are living in 1939. 95% of them are East of the Oder.

6. As for post WWII Jewish population movements- a lower proportion is likely to emigrate, but in absolute numbers emigration will be much, much larger. OTL, Israel recieved about 500,000 Holocaust survivors in the 50s. 2 million emigrants are a quite likely proposition absent a holocaust- if the warsaw pact countries allow them to leave (OTL, they mostly did, though Israel ended up bribing Romania) That said, any Central European Jews who can get out of Central Europe before the Iron curtain drops will do so. So expect a much larger Jewish population fleeing to the West. Thing is, until the late 1960s, Western countries effectively prevented jewish emigration (British occupation troops)

Romania is a good example proving my point. While Antonescu deported Soviet and some Moldavan Jews to Hitlers death camps (and Hungary did the same to Transylvanian Jews), Most Romanian Jews were persecuted but not murdered. Nontheless, within 20 years of Israel being formed the 300,000 Jews from Romanian were gone. The combination of the attractive force of zionism, the uncomfortable environment of communism and the continuing anti-semitism and insecurity (Jews were more likely to be purged and so forth) led them all to leave. Ditto for Hungary which was another Holocaust-Lite state.

I'm developing a few inter-related TLs exploring the effects of "alternate holocausts"- check out Shards of a dark mirror
 
Lets say that, after passing a lot of its OTL anti-Semetic legislation, Nazi Germany stops short of actually launching a genocide against the Jews (maybe Rienhard Hydrich has a car accident, maybe Hitler's generals convince him that a project like the Holocaust would suck up a lot of resources that the war effort needs, doesn't really matter what the exact POD is). Now, lets say that, in this TL, World War II follows its OTL course, but when the Nazis surrender in May 1945, Europe's Jewish population, while having endured a very rough decade, is still mostly alive.

So, how does this affect the postwar world? From my readings into Israeli history, I understand Zionism wasn't a majority opinion among Jews until the shock of Auschwitz convinced them they weren't safe in Western society-so does Israel get established in this TL? If not, what would be the effects of Poland, Belarus, and Hungary (not to mention Germany) continuing to be large centers of Jewish population and culture after the war? How would the Jewish populations of these countries react to the gradual Communist-ization after 1945, and what knock-on effects might we see on say, Polish or Hungarian culture?

Also, what effect does this have politically? I can actually see some very negative consequinces-without anti-Semetism being graphically shown for the evil it is, it might remain socially acceptable for longer:(. Without the Holocaust, would the concept of "genocide" exist in political theory? If not, what would TTL's politicians and academics call things like the Yugoslav wars, Darfur, Rwanda, etc?

Inb4 mod arrives and locks.

I think without the Holocaust there would be no Israel and thus a wholly different Middle East. In Europe far-right worldviews might not be seen as "fringe" and anti-semitism might exist for some time, however there would be many more diverse cultures based on Judaism without any genocide killing off most of Europe's Jews. Some sort of massive War Crimes tribunal would happen but the cries of "victors justice" might resound in the far right and the nationalists without the stigma of Nuremberg OTL. German Nationalism would be discredited for some time but might get back up. The FRG would most likely not be fully demilitarized in the case of the Cold War turning hot if this has any effect.

As for Nazism, Hitler might be viewed more favorably and there might be Imperial Japan-style apologists for Nazi Germany within Germany. I would not be surprised if one or two countries practice Fascism as a form of governance up to our times in a no-Holocaust world.

As for a term reflecting genocidal actions, I think the term "genocide" might still exist in some form, or it may be called something like "ethnic murder" or or something like that.
 
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yes, i'm resurrecting this, but here's my thought.

Hitler wants them Humilated and punished for WW1, if he doesn't kill them, next choice is enslave and send them to build the Nazi War machine. while POWs and Slavs would join their ranks, what was Holocaust deaths would instead be mass imprisonment and Slavery.

WW2 ends, and the Jews, seeing the situation in europe thanks to the Nazis, flee to their homeland, Isreal. the Jewish state however then deals with the Arabs, but more fiercely then before, as the Arabs want them DESTROYED, not enslaved. so, probably not much difference, other than Hitler is looked a little more kindly on
 
yes, i'm resurrecting this, but here's my thought.

Hitler wants them Humilated and punished for WW1, if he doesn't kill them, next choice is enslave and send them to build the Nazi War machine. while POWs and Slavs would join their ranks, what was Holocaust deaths would instead be mass imprisonment and Slavery.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mittelbau-Dora

Your "thought" ignores basic knowledge of what happened in forced labor camps. The Nazis did use Jews and other undesirables in work camps - and they died like flies there.

That was, of course, for the undesirables able bodied enough to work. But what do you think they'll do with the unfit to work - which were the first victims in the death camps? This time, do think.
 
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i knew that. I'm talking not about work to death, but like Work the normal factory hours with no chance to leave and in Poverty constantly. so still working them but not to death. you have 6 MILLION free workers, you might as well USE them, not exterminate them. wait till after a war, not during. then you would kill them. but free labor? take it

and don't insult my intelligence. some camps(Auschwitz) were Death/Labor camps, but i'm talking like factory work. and most Jews were just shoot or Gased. i'm saying you USE the undesirables, not auto destroy them. NO, i don't advicate their actions period, but it makes better sense to make them disappear and have the Jews do hard labor for Factories, not have the Germans do it instead

also, for the weaker ones. you have them still there and over time you get MORE workers. think of treating it like a resurrection of modern slavery, since i heard somewhere that Hitler's Ideas a lot of them came from America unfortunately

Again, are you ALWAYS this rude? think before you speak. i don't like fights, but i'll fight you if you insult me again. i came here to have a HONEST discussion, not a electronic boxing match
 

CalBear

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i knew that. I'm talking not about work to death, but like Work the normal factory hours with no chance to leave and in Poverty constantly. so still working them but not to death. you have 6 MILLION free workers, you might as well USE them, not exterminate them. wait till after a war, not during. then you would kill them. but free labor? take it

and don't insult my intelligence. some camps(Auschwitz) were Death/Labor camps, but i'm talking like factory work. and most Jews were just shoot or Gased. i'm saying you USE the undesirables, not auto destroy them. NO, i don't advicate their actions period, but it makes better sense to make them disappear and have the Jews do hard labor for Factories, not have the Germans do it instead

also, for the weaker ones. you have them still there and over time you get MORE workers. think of treating it like a resurrection of modern slavery, since i heard somewhere that Hitler's Ideas a lot of them came from America unfortunately

Again, are you ALWAYS this rude? think before you speak. i don't like fights, but i'll fight you if you insult me again. i came here to have a HONEST discussion, not a electronic boxing match
You came into a FOUR YEAR OLD dead thread, despite the warning banner, made a rather ill thought out post, one that utterly ignores both the reality of the camps and the Nazis beliefs regarding Jews (not just Hitler, BTW, but all his little minions as well), not to mention the fact that the Nazis used Soviet PoW in the factories, along with Poles and other Slavs, and WORKED THEM TO DEATH in the factory setting.

When that is pointed out to you, you react by THREATENING another member? You actually threaten someone, in your 8th total post?

Oh, HELL no.

That is about as classic a bit of trolling straight out of the Gate as I've seen.

We divorce you.

To Coventry with you.
 
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