WI: No Holocaust

[Mirza Khan]

Lets say that, after passing a lot of its OTL anti-Semetic legislation, Nazi Germany stops short of actually launching a genocide against the Jews (maybe Rienhard Hydrich has a car accident, maybe Hitler's generals convince him that a project like the Holocaust would suck up a lot of resources that the war effort needs, doesn't really matter what the exact POD is). Now, lets say that, in this TL, World War II follows its OTL course, but when the Nazis surrender in May 1945, Europe's Jewish population, while having endured a very rough decade, is still mostly alive.

So, how does this affect the postwar world? From my readings into Israeli history, I understand Zionism wasn't a majority opinion among Jews until the shock of Auschwitz convinced them they weren't safe in Western society-so does Israel get established in this TL? If not, what would be the effects of Poland, Belarus, and Hungary (not to mention Germany) continuing to be large centers of Jewish population and culture after the war? How would the Jewish populations of these countries react to the gradual Communist-ization after 1945, and what knock-on effects might we see on say, Polish or Hungarian culture?

Also, what effect does this have politically? I can actually see some very negative consequinces-without anti-Semetism being graphically shown for the evil it is, it might remain socially acceptable for longer. Without the Holocaust, would the concept of "genocide" exist in political theory? If not, what would TTL's politicians and academics call things like the Yugoslav wars, Darfur, Rwanda, etc?

 

[Valdemar II]

I personal feel a greater amount of antisemitism are a acceptable price for no Holocaust. I also think it's quite likely. Foremost we would likely see Jewish communities in West Europe which looked a lot more like their American counterparts, while Israel likely will still exist (even through fewer Jews in precent will leave Europe, in absolut number it will likely be a bigger number). But we will likely not see the same degree of unity among Jews without the traume the Holocaust gave them. We may see some Jews being pushed west in the chaos of WWII, so Germany and the rest of West Europe may have a increased Jewish population, some may also be driven out together with the Germans, especially in Czechoslovakia I see a chance for that happening (not because the Czechs was especially antisemitic, but because the Jews was mostly German/Yiddish speakers). Poland are unlikely to drive their Jewish minority out at least at first, we may see something later like in 1968, through I find it unlikely if they make up a significant part of the population. Belarussia are especially interesting, with the border changes after WWII and the expelling of the Poles, the Jews may form a plurality.

 

[Wolfpaw]

A couple of us on the Board would have a few more relatives in Europe. The form of anti-Semitism that existed before the war is going to linger longer. We might see the "Jews pushed everybody into this damned War" conspiracy theory persist a bit longer than IOTL. Yiddish culture won't be dealt the deathblow it recieved IOTL.

Israel may very well collapse in '48 since there won't be the flood of Jewish refugees that resulted from the Holocaust. Israel may not even be recognized since one of the primary reasons that it was was because the Holocaust convinced the major powers that Jews needed a place where they could not be oppressed by the popular majority (even if that meant ethnically cleansing Arabs to clear room for the refugees, which isn't taking the moral high ground by any means).

If there aren't any Einsatzgruppen a lot of Jews may stay in Eastern Europe. Nazi occupation and local oppression will be bad, but without native collaboration that involves mass-murdering Jews many of the Ostjuden may just see it as a very, very severe form of regular Eastern European anti-Semitism. Hungary is actually probably going to be an example of post-WWII reconciliation between Jews and locals due to Horthy's protection of the Jews and the general lack of popular anti-Semitism in Hungary.

 

[Mirza Khan]

I personal feel a greater amount of antisemitism are a acceptable price for no Holocaust. I also think it's quite likely. Foremost we would likely see Jewish communities in West Europe which looked a lot more like their American counterparts, while Israel likely will still exist (even through fewer Jews in precent will leave Europe, in absolut number it will likely be a bigger number). But we will likely not see the same degree of unity among Jews without the traume the Holocaust gave them. We may see some Jews being pushed west in the chaos of WWII, so Germany and the rest of West Europe may have a increased Jewish population, some may also be driven out together with the Germans, especially in Czechoslovakia I see a chance for that happening (not because the Czechs was especially antisemitic, but because the Jews was mostly German/Yiddish speakers). Poland are unlikely to drive their Jewish minority out at least at first, we may see something later like in 1968, through I find it unlikely if they make up a significant part of the population. Belarussia are especially interesting, with the border changes after WWII and the expelling of the Poles, the Jews may form a plurality.

What happened in Poland in 1968 (I'm not really up on Polish history ATM)

You know, Russia actually set aside part of Siberia as a "Jewish autonomous oblast" and tried to get Jews to come their as some sort of Communist answer to Zionism. So, do you think that, ITTL, they would drop the Siberia project and set up a Jewish Oblast/Republic in some part of Poland/Belarus that actually has a large Jewish population?

 

[Valdemar II]

What happened in Poland in 1968 (I'm not really up on Polish history ATM)

The Polish drove the last Jews out, many of them communist supporters of the regime. It's a important reason that many see Polish claims that antisemitism are a German thing sounds rather hollow.

You know, Russia actually set aside part of Siberia as a "Jewish autonomous oblast" and tried to get Jews to come their as some sort of Communist answer to Zionism. So, do you think that, ITTL, they would drop the Siberia project and set up a Jewish Oblast/Republic in some part of Poland/Belarus that actually has a large Jewish population?

In Belarussia, not a chance, especially because they recognised the Belarussians as a full SSR, but there was discussion whether to set up a Yiddish SSR or ASSR in Crimea. But even if they don't do that the Jewish Autonomous Oblast in Sibiria will likely have more succes, a important reason for its failure was a wave of anti-semitism which hit USSR in the early 50ties. If we see a bigger Jewish community, we could see it have bigger succes even if only a small minority of USSR Jewry live there.

 

[Constantinople]

Europe will be more anti-semetic. Though there will be a lot more Jews in Israel if it;s founded, which isn't totally unlikely because the Nazis still took over Europe and I can't imagine they'd feel good in good old europe.

 

[Wolfpaw]

Europe will be more anti-semetic. Though there will be a lot more Jews in Israel if it;s founded, which isn't totally unlikely because the Nazis still took over Europe and I can't imagine they'd feel good in good old europe.

Well, we should bear in mind that some of the main obstacles to Zionism were the delegations representing Eastern Jewry, which were rather obstinate and often frustrated proposals by Western Jews. Since Eastern Jewry was the main victim of the Holocaust, one of the main Zionist stumbling blocks was...removed (which sounds horrible but I can't think of a better word at the moment ).

 

[The Kiat]

May 1945? If they didn't expend such great resources to kill people who were no threat to them, then Germany might have held out long enough to get nuked. Hitler had the choice between shipping people to camps or supplies to the front, and what did he waste the trains on?

But, without the holocaust, I can't imagine Israel existing in its current form. Maybe just a more Jewish Palestine?

 

[Shogo]

Wonder what kind of effect it'd have on media.

If there's no Holocaust, do you think they'd be used as the "perfect" villains as often as they are OTL?

Would their still be major pushes for denazification? Swastika made illegal in Germany?

Or was that all despite the Holocaust?

 

[Aelita]

Even if you don't have the Final Solution, you'll still have the Einsatzgruppen. There really is no plausible way to get rid of this nasty portion of the SS. So you'll still have the mass murder, in the field, of over one million Jews, communists and Soviet party apparatchiks in Poland and the Soviet Union.

That still genocide, and you're not going to stop that without completely redefining what Nazism is.

 

[Mirza Khan]

Even if you don't have the Final Solution, you'll still have the Einsatzgruppen. There really is no plausible way to get rid of this nasty portion of the SS. So you'll still have the mass murder, in the field, of over one million Jews, communists and Soviet party apparatchiks in Poland and the Soviet Union.

That still genocide, and you're not going to stop that without completely redefining what Nazism is.

Didn't the Nazis hate slavs too, almost as much as Jews? Wouldn't it be plausible, with the right POD, to have the Jews be treated the same as the rest of the Polish or Russian populations-which would still be pretty horrible, but at least most of them would survive, and they would, essentially, have gone through the same hell their gentile neighbors went through, rather than being singled out.

Of course, granted, I didn't really think the idea through, it just kind of popped into my head after reading about Poland's pre-war Jewish community and wondering how things would have gone if they had survived.

 

[Valdemar II]

Even if you don't have the Final Solution, you'll still have the Einsatzgruppen. There really is no plausible way to get rid of this nasty portion of the SS. So you'll still have the mass murder, in the field, of over one million Jews, communists and Soviet party apparatchiks in Poland and the Soviet Union.

That still genocide, and you're not going to stop that without completely redefining what Nazism is.

It's a lot easier to forget or apoligise ("it was because they were communist scum") the killing of just one million people, in a area of over 50 millions, especially when millions of other people are dying as collateral damage in the same area. It's much harder for people to overlook the complete disappearance of a large specific ethnic group.

 

[Mr Qwerty]

It's a lot easier to forget or apoligise ("it was because they were communist scum") the killing of just one million people, in a area of over 50 millions, especially when millions of other people are dying as collateral damage in the same area. It's much harder for people to overlook the complete disappearance of a large specific ethnic group.

The Germans made effort to conceal the eintzatsgruppen massacres. They would not, of course, be successful, but it may take some years, and lots of controversy, for the truth to be accepted.

 

[Typo]

Didn't the Nazis hate slavs too, almost as much as Jews? Wouldn't it be plausible, with the right POD, to have the Jews be treated the same as the rest of the Polish or Russian populations-which would still be pretty horrible, but at least most of them would survive, and they would, essentially, have gone through the same hell their gentile neighbors went through, rather than being singled out.

The problem is antisemitism wasn't something the Nazis came up with, it was something grassroot all across eastern Europe, the Nazis, in other words, only became so popular by playing to existing popular opinion of Jews

 

[Black Sept]

Nazis would definitely be regarded much more favourably today, even if still widely condemned for the many many other atrocities they have committed besides the Holocaust. Still, I think it was the systematic, industrialised and totally meaningless genocide of the Jewish people that captured people's imagination- if you excuse the expression- and that made any position even remotely associated with Nazism not just indefensible, but outright poisonous from then on.

There would be a significant difference, I believe, in the way Germans judge and value their history. After the Holocaust, German nationalism was utterly and hopelessly discredited, first and foremost in the eyes of most Germans. By comparison there are many other countries where regimes closely associated and/or sharing many characteristics with the Nazis also existed such as Italy, Spain, Hungary, Romania, Slovakia, Croatia and so on; many have themselves actively participated in the Holocaust, either by sending their Jews to German extermination camps, such as Hungary, or murdering them at home, like Romania did; but as opposed to Germany, the climate of collective guilt and responsibility for the Holocaust did not develop in these countries, or at least not to the extent it did in Germany. Obviously, Germany was the undisputed leader and the main perpetrator, so this is understandable. My point is that in all these countries nationalist manifestations, even of the more extreme kind are tolerated to this day and often popular in a manner that would be unimaginable in Germany.

Without the Holocaust, Hitler would probably be remembered not as a monster, but rather like a very controversial, but still great historical personality. Think of how Stalin ended up third in a notorious nation-wide Russian TV-poll for the Top Greatest Russians Ever just a couple of years ago. This is a guy who is known to have mass-murdered millions of his own countrymen. And still, many people, even today, respect him for developing the country and winning the Great Patriotic War. Many other leaders in similar positions-Mussolini, Franco, Horthy, Antonescu- have also received a relatively more ambiguous judgement from later generations, and that might have been the fate of Hitler too.

Without the Holocaust, there would be no debate about the most hideous dictator of the XXth century, except maybe between Stalin and Mao. In contemporary public consciousness Hitler would appear much more sympathetic than Stalin. For Germans, he would still be the leader that ultimately drove the country in an unwinnable World War, but without the added horror of the Holocaust, he could very well be regarded as a patriot who has gone too far.

 

[archaeogeek]

What happened in Poland in 1968 (I'm not really up on Polish history ATM)

You know, Russia actually set aside part of Siberia as a "Jewish autonomous oblast" and tried to get Jews to come their as some sort of Communist answer to Zionism. So, do you think that, ITTL, they would drop the Siberia project and set up a Jewish Oblast/Republic in some part of Poland/Belarus that actually has a large Jewish population?

I could easily see a section of the Pale of Settlement set aside as an Ashkenazi jewish homeland (say, most of the territory Poland would just have lost) if it wasn't for the murder of about 3/4 of the local jewish population.

My family history would probably be less of a pain to dig up if it wasn't for wholesale destruction.

 

[King Thomas]

Pluses-Many, many less murders
-No Isreal,without it, probebly no Al-Queda and no September 11th attacks.

On the other hand there may be more antisemitism and more support for Nazism.

 

[Evan]

Without the Holocaust, there would be no debate about the most hideous dictator of the XXth century, except maybe between Stalin and Mao. In contemporary public consciousness Hitler would appear much more sympathetic than Stalin.

Wow. You're probably right. What do you think that'd do to the popular conception of communism?

 

[archaeogeek]

Wow. You're probably right. What do you think that'd do to the popular conception of communism?

We'd probably debate between the Soviet Union and the British Empire, both had similar bodycounts during the period.

Also it would do little, since most communists outside of China and the Soviet union are troskyists and anarchists (and true enough, the stalinists used this as an excuse to backstab the spanish republic).
And I'll note that people on the right are still trying to turn nazism and fascism into a branch of communism, so truthful propaganda is not exactly something we expect here.

 

[celt]

We'd probably debate between the Soviet Union and the British Empire, both had similar bodycounts during the period.

You might and afew leftie Anglophobes would but the rest of us wouldn't probably

There is still an awful lot of stuff the Nazis would be condemed for,even if the Holocaust didn't happen, that they would still be considered the biggest villians of the 20th century,at least in Western eyes.