WI: No Hawker Hurricane
- Thread starter oldironside
- Start date
Well, the Vickers Venom looks to be in the running as a Hurricane replacement. Better turn of speed than the Type 146 or MB2 (and that's from a 625hp engine while the others both had 800-1000hp), in between the two in service ceiling... and available from 1936 rather than 1938.
Only downside is the Bristol Aquila engine proved rather a dead end, and all other Bristol radials would have added at least an extra 100kg to the aircraft... not impossible to contend with but likely requires non-trivial changes to the design.
Only downside is the Bristol Aquila engine proved rather a dead end, and all other Bristol radials would have added at least an extra 100kg to the aircraft... not impossible to contend with but likely requires non-trivial changes to the design.
It does suggest Glosters being bought up by (say) Bristol, doesn't it? (Yes, I know, there's a thread on exactly that prospect.Driftless said:
)Without Hawker, who's to say the OTL Spit even gets built?
Mayhap the Gloster F5/34 is preferred?Also, what happens to the CAM ships?
Cryhavoc101 said:Sniff....Harrier
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It probably makes more sense to look around the world to see what everyone else was building in the late 1930s on a 1,000 HP engine. Quite apart from the Spitfire, you have the Me-109, Dewotine 520, Bloch 152, Arsenal VG34, Curtiss Hawk family, Bell Airacobra, Republic P-43, etc. etc. Butterfly away Hawkers and the details of the design change, but overall the performance of whatever you end up with will be much the same.
usertron2020
Donor
Agreed, but didn't the P-40 do a much better job as a tank killer in NA than as an air superiority fighter?
And at the same time there I remember reading a collection of Biggles stories written in 1940 and W.E.Johns was quite adamant that Biggles and his squadron during the Battle of Britain did not only shoot down their share of Messerschmitts nut also a fair amount of 'those new wonder planes, the Heinkel 113". So yes, there was a big lot of propaganda involved. A big 'selling point' of the Spitfire was the legend behind it. Likewise the hype anout the He100/113. I actually wonder how many of then were claimed to be shot down by over-eager RAF pilots for real?
Agreed, but didn't the P-40 do a much better job as a tank killer in NA than as an air superiority fighter?
The only "tank killer" in NA was the Hurricane IID, and what made it so was the 2 Vickers S guns. These made it unsuitable for air combat. In the air superiority role, we'd have to ask the Aussie, Clive Caldwell, and the Canadian, Stocky Edwards if the Curtiss fighter was any good. Edwards did manage to put rounds into Marseilles' aircraft, and in the post war historians' rush to verify victory claims, Stocky's victory claims were proven 100% factual. A rarity.
Of that lot I'd say the Gloster stood the best chance, the Miles was too late, the Bristol too slow and the Martin-Baker used the wrong engine.
how about as an interim gloster do with the gladiator what hawker did with the fury
namely a monoplane glad (looking at the f.5/34 i cant see much of the glad in there - just the close cowled radial, everything else looks different)
The structure and build method of the Gladiator was not dissimilar to that used in the Hurricane. On the other hand the Gloster F5/34 had a semi monocoque fuselage which was more akin to the Spitfire structure. The Problem with the Gloster P5/34 is three fold, 1: the Mercury engine lacks power. 2: The AM will prioritise the Mercury engine for the Blenheim Bomber then entering service. 3: Folland the designer of the F5/34 had left Glosters to set up his own company some 8 months before the first flight of the prototype Gloster fighter. Now stick an Alvis Pelides engine in the P5/34, (this engine was producing 1050hp in 1936) then you might have a viable Hurricane equivalent. Alvis of course was not within the AM ‘ring’ and therefore any order for their Pelides engine was very unlikely.
Such a design did actually exist prioir to the version of the F5/34 Gloster actually worked up to flying status:
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...0CCkQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=folland f5/34&f=false
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v136/paul1/FollandsfirstF534project.jpg
So the first F5 was a monoplane Gladiator. In theory ten MGs would be possible (the two designed into the fuselage) but that adds the weight of 'cc gear' to sync with the triple prop. Same fuselage means the same arrestor hook deal.
The structure and build method of the Gladiator was not dissimilar to that used in the Hurricane. On the other hand the Gloster F5/34 had a semi monocoque fuselage which was more akin to the Spitfire structure. The Problem with the Gloster P5/34 is three fold, 1: the Mercury engine lacks power. 2: The AM will prioritise the Mercury engine for the Blenheim Bomber then entering service. 3: Folland the designer of the F5/34 had left Glosters to set up his own company some 8 months before the first flight of the prototype Gloster fighter. Now stick an Alvis Pelides engine in the P5/34, (this engine was producing 1050hp in 1936) then you might have a viable Hurricane equivalent. Alvis of course was not within the AM ‘ring’ and therefore any order for their Pelides engine was very unlikely.
So does the AM start to increasingly prioritise Vickers/Super marines Spitfire over the Gloster?
I think that I am right in thinking that the Spitfire always had the edge in performance over the Hurricane and I would be surprised if the same was not true vs a Pelides powered F5/34!
The result - possible much greater numbers of Spitfires built than OTL but due to the more advanced production needs of the Spit fewer overall fighters in 1939 - although with a more focused development of the Spitfire we might have seen some of the later production improvements implemented earlier and with greater 3rd party factory involvement earlier as well - which could have resulted in more fighters.
This might have snowballed with fighter production totally focused on one type and being more efficient as a result.
I wonder if the notional increase in Spit production actually helps. OTL, the Spits were pretty scattered across Britain, including in 13 Group, where they were really more than a match for what they'd meet, & where Hurris would do nicely. TTL, they're likely still to be--only they'd be paired with the likes of the Fury. Overall effectiveness might actually go down. (I don't feature Dowding deciding to concentrate his Spits in 11 Group & get put the Furys & Blenheims up north, which would've been the best idea.)
Overall effectiveness might actually go down. (I don't feature Dowding deciding to concentrate his Spits in 11 Group & get put the Furys & Blenheims up north, which would've been the best idea.)You are right in thinking that the Spitfire would always have the edge in performance over the Hurricane, and over the Gloster, and anything else imaginable waiting in the wings. The compromise to achieve optimum performance sacrificed ease of manufacture and servicing. That sacrifice had to be made, and the wing production technique required time to get on line. It had priority, but still needed time. If it gets more priority, it still takes time. Focus everything on Spitfire production and it still takes time to get wings. I don't think there can be a thread on building a better Spitfire, and Hawker, Gloster, Bristol, Vickers, Martin-Baker or Fairey aren't going to build one. A Hurri substitute is a distinct possibility, and with the disappearance of Hawkers, a necessity. Gladiators went to Norway and failed. They were quickly replaced by throw-away Hurricanes. Gladiators were sent to France, but both squadrons converted to Hurris before May 10, one just. All these aircraft were deemed necessary, and all were lost. There was not a question of Spitfires being used in this fashion. A quick-build adequate-or-better substitute Hurricane is needed, and if it leads to a better folding-wing ship-board naval aircraft, so much the better. In the absence of the Hurricane, and considering the substitute a high speed fighter and not an F5/34, the Merlin would be the engine of choice at the time, and the potential future Alvis engine developments would and did remain unresolved and unanswered. A single air raid on the factory forming Spitfire leading edges would have meant stoppage of production of the whole aircraft. If they knew.
I wonder if the notional increase in Spit production actually helps. OTL, the Spits were pretty scattered across Britain, including in 13 Group, where they were really more than a match for what they'd meet, & where Hurris would do nicely. TTL, they're likely still to be--only they'd be paired with the likes of the Fury.
RAF 247 squadron was formed in Plymouth for the BoB, operating Gladiators.
Gentlemen, I've popped back for the first time today (I just drove 1000km to get home) and am gratified to see that it is turning into just the sort of informative discussion.
I generally agree with those members emphasising that just saying "Speed up Spitfire production, even though you're not ready" is not going to work. It's more of an RLM tactic.
And I really like the idea of a monoplane Gladiator on the lines of the Fury/Hurricane development. Incidentally, I've just looked at an online thesaurus and they suggest: Gloster Contender, Antagonist, Disputant and Punching Bag. Hmm.
I wonder how much effort would be required to get a Merlin in a Gladiator fuselage.
I generally agree with those members emphasising that just saying "Speed up Spitfire production, even though you're not ready" is not going to work. It's more of an RLM tactic.
And I really like the idea of a monoplane Gladiator on the lines of the Fury/Hurricane development. Incidentally, I've just looked at an online thesaurus and they suggest: Gloster Contender, Antagonist, Disputant and Punching Bag. Hmm.
I wonder how much effort would be required to get a Merlin in a Gladiator fuselage.
It was an Air Ministry from tactic from 1936 too. It was known as ordering aircraft "off the drawing board" rather than waiting for the prototypes to be tested, but with mixed results.
A power-egg Merlin would slide right onto the Gloster Auntie Glo, merely displacing the oil tank and half the fuel tank. The oil tank moves to displace the remaining fuel tank, which moves into the wing root between spars and landing gear.
Which gives me a late Saturday night, can't be arsed to start a new thread, idea. What's the biggest engine you could fit in a Gladiator and still make it flyable?
