WI No Hapsburg Division

What if Charles V was succeeded in all his domains by his son Philip II?How would this affect history?What if?

PS:I think the PoD could either be Ferdinand dies early, Ferdinand accepts Charles' deal that after his death Philip becomes Emperor with Maximillian governing Austria or Maximillian converts to Lutheranism. You choose.
 

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Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike this Chapspurgian vewy wuffly!
 
What if Charles V was succeeded in all his domains by his son Philip II?How would this affect history?What if?

PS:I think the PoD could either be Ferdinand dies early, Ferdinand accepts Charles' deal that after his death Philip becomes Emperor with Maximillian governing Austria or Maximillian converts to Lutheranism. You choose.

OK only the first one is even viable. If Philip succeeds as Emperor, that would be it. He would be Holy Roman Emperor, but wouldn't hold the Austrian Hereditary Lands. Those would remain in Ferdinand, and later Maximilian's hands. As to the third, technically these is no law that says the Emperor must be Catholic. However, Maximilian would be forced to renounce the throne to either his sons (assuming he has any at this point) or his brothers.

Have Ferdinand die early, in around 1521/22, then that would be your POD. Though in all honesty, this massive Empire was entirely ungovernable. It was to far flung, had to many problems that needed the Sovereign on hand, and would no doubt fall apart within a generation or two.
 
An early, childless death of Ferdinand after 1525 seems the best bet.
If you kill him before he marries the Princess of Hungary-Bohemia, the Habsburg inheritance there becomes iffy.
If he has children, then Austria-Hungary-Bohemia will not go to Philipp.
 
I don't see this as very likely, even if Ferdinand were to predecease his brother without any surviving children.

IIRC, the electors and the rest of the German princes made it clear rather early on that they did not want Philip II as their emperor. He was a foreigner in their eyes, born and raised in Spain, who didn't understand their laws or customs. Honestly, I can't see any way around this, since at this point, Castile is the centre of Charles' domains in terms of importance and to have Philip brought up in the Netherlands would alienate the Castilians, who weren't about to accept another foreigner either (recall: the reasons behind the Communeros).

Also, why would Ferdinand accept Charles' proposal after his death? In OTL he was pretty opposed to it and even if he somehow changed his mind, the electors are on his side and would prefer Maximilian in any case. Even if Ferdinand I were to predecease Charles V, they would likely refuse Philip II and choose someone else--either a compromise candidate or the highest bidder.

If Maximilian becomes a Lutheran, they either choose another of Ferdinand's sons or elect Maximilian anyway. As Constantine said, there was no convention or law that said that the emperor was required to be a Catholic. In fact, given the religiously charged climate of the Reformation, it might make Maximilian II a more attractive candidate, depending on the makeup of the electors at the timing of his election:

Hermann von Wied, the Archbishop of Cologne, was sympathetic to the Reformation for political reasons from 1536 and even broke with Rome for a time until his eventual deposition.

Joachim II of Brandenburg was a Protestant sympathiser (if not a crypto-Lutheran himself) by 1539, although he waited until 1555 to openly embrace Lutheranism)

The Electors Palatine attempted to introduce the Lutheran Reformation in 1544 before backing down a few years later, then successfully did so in 1556, before becoming staunchly Calvinist a few years later.

The Electors of Saxony were firmly Lutheran after 1527.

So, even if Maximilian II adopts the Lutheran faith, depending on the year, if Charles V tries to force Philip II on the electors, there may very well be three or four of them who find that Maximilian has been rendered an even more preferable candidate by his conversion (and don't forget, he may hold a vote of his own as King of Bohemia).
 
Ironically Ferdinand I, brother of Charles V, was raised in Spain. However as an adult he first got the Austrian Hereditary Lands as part of his inheritance and later by marriage he managed to expand this with Bohemia and (rump) Hungary. Thus his focus was on Central Europe with Imperial politics being a major part of this. In other words Ferdinand managed (gradually) to not to be seen as a foreign prince.

The reign of Charles V had shown that such a collection of lands wasn't governable; the Castillians, the Aragonese, the princes of the Empire, the Burgundians (& Dutch) etc. no one was pleased about it.

Also an early death of Ferdinand would prevent the Habsburgs from re-gaining (albeit by a different branch) Bohemia & Hungary; unless this is before the marriage of Charles V with Isabella of Portugal.
 
Ironically Ferdinand I, brother of Charles V, was raised in Spain. However as an adult he first got the Austrian Hereditary Lands as part of his inheritance and later by marriage he managed to expand this with Bohemia and (rump) Hungary. Thus his focus was on Central Europe with Imperial politics being a major part of this. In other words Ferdinand managed (gradually) to not to be seen as a foreign prince.

The reign of Charles V had shown that such a collection of lands wasn't governable; the Castillians, the Aragonese, the princes of the Empire, the Burgundians (& Dutch) etc. no one was pleased about it.

Also an early death of Ferdinand would prevent the Habsburgs from re-gaining (albeit by a different branch) Bohemia & Hungary; unless this is before the marriage of Charles V with Isabella of Portugal.

Well Charles didn't marry Isabella of Portugal until 1526 so Charles could probably marry Anne of Bohemia and Hungary, either as her first marriage or marrying his brother's widow.
 
As to the third, technically these is no law that says the Emperor must be Catholic. However, Maximilian would be forced to renounce the throne to either his sons (assuming he has any at this point) or his brothers.

Joining the crowd of 'yeah, that wouldn't work'--if Maximilian converted the Catholics could try and make that happen. It would probably not go well for them--they'd essentially find themselves in the position the Protestants were in the Empire previously, rebels against the Emperor. Except that instead of being a sizable majority that has to be accommodated, they'd be a significant minority with a lot less bargaining room. (Facing that sizable majority who likely has bloody vengeance on its mind.) And as quite a few Catholics realize this fact, expect to see many sitting this one out...
 
Joining the crowd of 'yeah, that wouldn't work'--if Maximilian converted the Catholics could try and make that happen. It would probably not go well for them--they'd essentially find themselves in the position the Protestants were in the Empire previously, rebels against the Emperor. Except that instead of being a sizable majority that has to be accommodated, they'd be a significant minority with a lot less bargaining room. (Facing that sizable majority who likely has bloody vengeance on its mind.) And as quite a few Catholics realize this fact, expect to see many sitting this one out...

This might lead to the split of the to titles of German King (whom the electors elected) and Roman Emperor (who was crowned by the pope, from Charlemagne to Charles V.). Italy and thus Rome was controlled by spain, not by Austria, so the Kingdom of Germany north of the Alps might have a protestant King, but the Catholic King of Spain will probably claim the imperial title. And probably find some reason to claim that the Burgundy complex was not part of Germany, but an imperial domain.
 
This might lead to the split of the to titles of German King (whom the electors elected) and Roman Emperor (who was crowned by the pope, from Charlemagne to Charles V.). Italy and thus Rome was controlled by spain, not by Austria, so the Kingdom of Germany north of the Alps might have a protestant King, but the Catholic King of Spain will probably claim the imperial title. And probably find some reason to claim that the Burgundy complex was not part of Germany, but an imperial domain.

The Pope didn't crown the Emperor anymore. The last Emperor crowned was Charles V. By this point the King of the Romans used the title Elected Holy Roman Emperor.
 
It would certainly throw s wrench into history if the Emporer was not Catholic. I am not sure it would be viable in the long run. I think there would be a 30 Year type war a century early.
 
It would certainly throw s wrench into history if the Emporer was not Catholic. I am not sure it would be viable in the long run. I think there would be a 30 Year type war a century early.

It would be very interesting to see. After all, Protestantism had a sizable hold in the Habsburg monarchy during the 16th and 17th centuries, so we could potentially see the future Austrian Empire go Protestant.
 
Joining the crowd of 'yeah, that wouldn't work'--if Maximilian converted the Catholics could try and make that happen. It would probably not go well for them--they'd essentially find themselves in the position the Protestants were in the Empire previously, rebels against the Emperor. Except that instead of being a sizable majority that has to be accommodated, they'd be a significant minority with a lot less bargaining room. (Facing that sizable majority who likely has bloody vengeance on its mind.) And as quite a few Catholics realize this fact, expect to see many sitting this one out...
Were the Protestants a majority by Charles V's death? I'm no expert on Germany specifically, but in a lot of places Protestantism spread among the moneyed classes first, then migrated down the social ladder. Because of that, an area would often be represented by Protestant leadership well before the rank and file had converted. By the 30 years war Catholicism seemed to have the upper hand in Germany, not counting the foreign interventions of course, but that is after the counter reformation, so I'm not exactly sure how that translates to Charles V's Germany.
 
Were the Protestants a majority by Charles V's death? I'm no expert on Germany specifically, but in a lot of places Protestantism spread among the moneyed classes first, then migrated down the social ladder. Because of that, an area would often be represented by Protestant leadership well before the rank and file had converted. By the 30 years war Catholicism seemed to have the upper hand in Germany, not counting the foreign interventions of course, but that is after the counter reformation, so I'm not exactly sure how that translates to Charles V's Germany.

I'm pretty sure they had a majority, or were very close to a majority at least. I'll have to look into specific Princes but at the time of Charles V's abdication Protestantism was certainly on the rise in both Germany and the Imperial Habsburg dominions.
 
It would make things "interesting" if the Empire went Protestant and if butterflies somehow caused England to go back to the Mother Church. I wonder how well a Protestant Empire would hold up against Turkey and relations with the Orthodox citizens.
 
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