Deleted member 67076
Say, Rudolph I is killed before he could become emperor and died with no children. How would this effect history?
Perhaps. The Wittelsbach were quiet notable family and they ruled Bavaria Untile end of WW1.
I'm not sure why the Habsburgs fading necessarily is worse or better for the Catholic Church - who takes their place?
As of 1273, Rudolph is a rich but minor count. With someone like that as a good candidate, you might get Ottokar II in absence of alternatives - who is in a stronger position than the early Habsbrug emperors.
As of 1273, Rudolph is a rich but minor count. With someone like that as a good candidate, you might get Ottokar II in absence of alternatives - who is in a stronger position than the early Habsbrug emperors.
After Albert I, the Hapsburgs were eclipsed from the imperial title for over a hundred years. They eventually returned thanks to a fortunate marriage to a Luxemburg heiress.
If Rudolf I, Albert I and their descendants are eliminated, things can go pretty much the same way in the 1300s and early 1400s as they did OTL, after which Elizabeth of Luxemburg marries somebody else. [I think there's still an Elizabeth; I didn't check if she had any Hapsburgs in her ancestry].
If Rudolf I, Albert I and their descendants are eliminated, things can go pretty much the same way in the 1300s and early 1400s as they did OTL, after which Elizabeth of Luxemburg marries somebody else. [I think there's still an Elizabeth; I didn't check if she had any Hapsburgs in her ancestry].
The Babenberg's were successfully using Austria as a power base before the male line died off. Which helped aid the Habsburgs in taking over the area. So, it really is the land not the family. Whomever, gets control of Austria will influence Hungary and Bohemia just like the Babenberg and Habsburg Houses did.
So, no Habsburg means we will be taking about some other Noble House like the Wittlesbach, Witten, maybe even a cadet Capet branch, etc...
So, no Habsburg means we will be taking about some other Noble House like the Wittlesbach, Witten, maybe even a cadet Capet branch, etc...
birdboy2000
Banned
Austria's a potential power base for sure, but oftentimes it was Bohemia or occasionally Hungary influencing Austria and not the other way around. The Hapsburgs absorbed those states successfully, but they added the Burgundian Netherlands and the emperor's crown to Austria first - they didn't do it with Austria alone.
No Hapsburgs may mean Austria's just another large state in the Holy Roman Empire, or even a Bohemian province. If Ottokar defeats Rudolph, you have Bohemia-Austria much earlier and ruled from Prague. If it's a different PoD and Austria gets a new local family, it has its advantages as a powerbase... but so do Bavaria or Bohemia or other large HRE provinces.
No Hapsburgs may mean Austria's just another large state in the Holy Roman Empire, or even a Bohemian province. If Ottokar defeats Rudolph, you have Bohemia-Austria much earlier and ruled from Prague. If it's a different PoD and Austria gets a new local family, it has its advantages as a powerbase... but so do Bavaria or Bohemia or other large HRE provinces.
Not much could change, the Habsburgs probably will stay in their original Swabian, Alsatian and Swiss territories and may even be able to like Württemberg manage to become a duke. Still they won't be the great dynasty like IOTL.
However it was a period were strong emperors or king of the Romans with relatively weak powerbase could make promotion.
Other examples were the house of Luxembourg, which were in the position to marry a Bohemian princess and win the war of succession in their favour and thus gain the kingdom of Bohemia for their dynasty.
There is the known OTL example of the Habsburgs.
Another one is king of the Romans Adolf of Nassau, who intervened in dispute within the Wettin Lands between the ruler and his sons. He purchased the landgraviate of Thuringia from its ruler and seized the margraviate of Meissen as a reverted fief, which had belonged to a cadet branch of the house of Wettin, but was claimed by the branch ruling Thuringia and Lusatia. King Adolf of Nassau did overplay his hand, since this didn't fit with the ambitions of electors such as the archbishop of Mainz and the king of Bohemia. Maybe a compromise with the house of Wettin could have secured him Thuringia or Meissen (probably Thuringia).
Alternatively Ottokar II of Bohemia could prevail, but he was to powerful for the liking of most prince electors and other imperial princes, whomever replaces Rudolf of Habsburg is likely to end up having a similar conflict.
@ Grey Wolf: IMHO it is way to soon at that point that the empire would end sooner. There even was a sense of '(HR) Empire' during the great interregnum.
@Xgentis: the Habsburgs, originally with the Trastamaras just happened to encircle from out of fear or to prevent French expansion (which was the most powerful Western European State). OTOH the Habsburgs inheriting the Lands of the Trastamaras in Spain, Italy and the New World was rather lucky.
However it was a period were strong emperors or king of the Romans with relatively weak powerbase could make promotion.
Other examples were the house of Luxembourg, which were in the position to marry a Bohemian princess and win the war of succession in their favour and thus gain the kingdom of Bohemia for their dynasty.
There is the known OTL example of the Habsburgs.
Another one is king of the Romans Adolf of Nassau, who intervened in dispute within the Wettin Lands between the ruler and his sons. He purchased the landgraviate of Thuringia from its ruler and seized the margraviate of Meissen as a reverted fief, which had belonged to a cadet branch of the house of Wettin, but was claimed by the branch ruling Thuringia and Lusatia. King Adolf of Nassau did overplay his hand, since this didn't fit with the ambitions of electors such as the archbishop of Mainz and the king of Bohemia. Maybe a compromise with the house of Wettin could have secured him Thuringia or Meissen (probably Thuringia).
Alternatively Ottokar II of Bohemia could prevail, but he was to powerful for the liking of most prince electors and other imperial princes, whomever replaces Rudolf of Habsburg is likely to end up having a similar conflict.
@ Grey Wolf: IMHO it is way to soon at that point that the empire would end sooner. There even was a sense of '(HR) Empire' during the great interregnum.
@Xgentis: the Habsburgs, originally with the Trastamaras just happened to encircle from out of fear or to prevent French expansion (which was the most powerful Western European State). OTOH the Habsburgs inheriting the Lands of the Trastamaras in Spain, Italy and the New World was rather lucky.
Lets assume another "minor" noble becomes emperor - he might follow a similar course, but the butterflies might be strong enough to prevent the death of Ottokar. If the Przemisl dynasty clings to Bohemia and a part of the babenberg lands Prague will be the new Vienna
Would there even be a Thirty Years War with three and a half centuries of change?
But that aside, the Habsburg lands outside the empire (Looking at the Austrian half) were only a small part of their lands.
Richter von Manthofen: It clung to Bohemia until 1300 or so if memory serves, so even if Ottokar dies, its potentially far from irrelevant.
I think the relevant question is - would an alternate Emperor have the same sucess against Otokar?
IIRC Ottocar held in addition to Bohemia: Moravia, Austria (meaning the core Upper and Lower Austria), Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Friuli, the Windic March AND Silesia. This territory is spanning almost the total Eastern Border of Germany.
If There is no Rudolf - after all rudolf was a compromise candidate - Ottokar is in even more powerful than Rudolf of OTL. (in terms of private property).
Ottokars problem was that he was TOO powerful.
It could have been that his possessions split grom the Empire and he forms a separate state in Europe. It might be that this state adopts (over time) a language of mixed German and czech origin and forms a separate identity. IIRC Ottokars sucessors were even kings of Hungary for a (short) time...
It would be a huge Empire of the east - maybe something like A-H but without the ties to Germany...
IIRC Ottocar held in addition to Bohemia: Moravia, Austria (meaning the core Upper and Lower Austria), Styria, Carinthia, Carniola, Friuli, the Windic March AND Silesia. This territory is spanning almost the total Eastern Border of Germany.
If There is no Rudolf - after all rudolf was a compromise candidate - Ottokar is in even more powerful than Rudolf of OTL. (in terms of private property).
Ottokars problem was that he was TOO powerful.
It could have been that his possessions split grom the Empire and he forms a separate state in Europe. It might be that this state adopts (over time) a language of mixed German and czech origin and forms a separate identity. IIRC Ottokars sucessors were even kings of Hungary for a (short) time...
It would be a huge Empire of the east - maybe something like A-H but without the ties to Germany...
IMHO if a dynasty would be able to do so, then IMHO a dynasty will do so.
I don't see, the territories leave the empire (certainly not formally). Either Ottokar is elected or another compromise candidate is found, which will lead to another conflict. IMHO a difference could be, which territories this ATL emperor is able to keep for his own dynasty.
Well, there's a difference between 'Nothing theoretically stops it." and actually having the successes the Habsburgs enjoyed.
They did a pretty good job producing male issue and marrying into families that didn't.
Its not impossible someone else would do as well, but its far from certain.