WI: No Gunpowder

In 850 AD, a Chinese alchemist discovered gunpowder while trying to form life-extending elixirs. What if he didn't discover gunpowder, and just made a useless mixture instead?
 
If that philosopher doesn't make it, someone else will.

Maybe, but it might take another thousand years. All of the ingredients for gunpowder have been known since at least the early Roman period but it took a millennia and a half to come up with it. It's such a weirdly specific mixture and then making a useful gunpowder is even more specific set of steps still.
 
Maybe, but it might take another thousand years. All of the ingredients for gunpowder have been known since at least the early Roman period but it took a millennia and a half to come up with it. It's such a weirdly specific mixture and then making a useful gunpowder is even more specific set of steps still.

Not only did it take 1,500 years to come up with, it was, as far as we know, only discovered once.
 
Full blown armor would continue on in use much longer



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Maybe, but it might take another thousand years. All of the ingredients for gunpowder have been known since at least the early Roman period but it took a millennia and a half to come up with it. It's such a weirdly specific mixture and then making a useful gunpowder is even more specific set of steps still.
Gunpowder is hardly a specific recipe that can be discovered once : while it asked centuries to really come up with more and more efficient recipes and proportions of given ingredients, it less asked a list of these ingredient than enough knowledge in early chemistry to mix them.
Giving that many people toyed with incendiary weapons or similar research, if not the Chinese, then maybe Byzantines, or Arabs, or Indians, etc. basically anyone with enough early chemistry knowledge.
 
It's worth considering that the likelihood of a useful discovery that sticks in any year generally increases with time. Greater chemical knowledge and more people experimenting increases the chance. It took ages to be discovered OTL, but once the scene was set the chance was much better than before, and would get better.
 

trurle

Banned
The gunpowder was not discovered in instant. Instead, a centuries-long progress in the purification of nitrates, and experimenting with adding other substances have lead to variety of recipes, of which gunpowder was simply most useful. Basically, to forbid gunpowder you need to eliminate whole alchemy tradition, likely meaning less advanced society with stunted growth. Very deadly (mortality>90%) epidemics are highly likely due poor selection of medicines. The colonies of New World will be abandoned in particular after the Europe will be devastated by syphilis for which no cure would exist.
 
I'm of the mind that we would have gunpowderno matter if it wasn't done before that time in history. Far too many people were playing around with the idea of some kind of elixir that no doubt somebody would end up mixing the needed ingredients to make gunpowder. Likely blowing themselves up doing so.

Once that happened it's just a matter of time until people start making it in smaller doses and testing the idea out. Guns may show up a bit later on than it did in our timeline but I'm sure guns and the like would exist in this timeline.
 
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Nomad horsearcher continue to dominate.
In europe the further evolution and dominance and spread of heavy armor and development of weapons that can harm it.
Later we can imagine every aspect of a modern army - its education, uniform, logistics, canton system, etc just with mass produced heavy armour and such.
Finally steam punk like weapons are developed and used in various quantities.

I know this its basically ASB to reach those without stumbling on gunpowder on the way but its an interesting idea.
 
Nomad horsearcher continue to dominate.

With the rather short period of the real Mongolian presence in Europe (not to be confused with the later Tatars who lost most of the Mongolian advantages), the nomadic horse archers did not dominate even the Eastern Europe: Polovtsy (Cumans) were considered weak warriors by their Russian neighbors by the time of battle at Kalka River.

In europe the further evolution and dominance and spread of heavy armor and development of weapons that can harm it.
Later we can imagine every aspect of a modern army - its education, uniform, logistics, canton system, etc just with mass produced heavy armour and such.
Finally steam punk like weapons are developed and used in various quantities.

The heavy armor (not to be confused with the plate armor in general) was an answer to the early firearms: did not make too much sense prior to that because even armor circa 100YW provided an adequate protection against the existing projectiles while allowing knights to move freely on foot. So it would probably evolve into something more sophisticated, like "Maximilian armor", but not much heavire.

In Europe you'd have raise of the pikemen: Swiss-like formations with no or little armor and without further development into the pike and shot ones (Spanish & German models).[/QUOTE]
 
Full blown armor would continue on in use much longer



a6160965d9fbf817121fbf5cd33371f9.jpg

Just out of curiosity, where did this picture came from? Not that I'm a big specialist but it looks a little bit "too much" of everything and not necessarily from the same place and time. :cool:

The body armor (what's seen of it) does not look like Maximilian or even Gothic (or any plate armor) while the helmet is quite sophisticated (looks like post-Gothic but an attempt to raise visor would probably end with a failure due to the shape of a helmet) and the shoes are definitely not from any of those (Gothic - pointed, Maximilian - "bear paw") and, sorry, but dagger's handle is too short for practical usage and their blades usually had been longer. Sword of the Maximilian period was longer and narrower with a pointed end (for piercing between the pieces of the plate armor). Of course, these are just my impressions and I can be totally wrong.
 
Just out of curiosity, where did this picture came from? Not that I'm a big specialist but it looks a little bit "too much" of everything and not necessarily from the same place and time. :cool:

The body armor (what's seen of it) does not look like Maximilian or even Gothic (or any plate armor) while the helmet is quite sophisticated (looks like post-Gothic but an attempt to raise visor would probably end with a failure due to the shape of a helmet) and the shoes are definitely not from any of those (Gothic - pointed, Maximilian - "bear paw") and, sorry, but dagger's handle is too short for practical usage and their blades usually had been longer. Sword of the Maximilian period was longer and narrower with a pointed end (for piercing between the pieces of the plate armor). Of course, these are just my impressions and I can be totally wrong.

Yeah it's a fanciful take on some historical armor but from a hodgepodge of periods as you described. Just found it on Google.

Represention I guess of armor from a period where maybe gun powder never arises.
 
Naval battles would be pretty interesting. Would ramming or boarding still be the primary methods of disabling? Maybe Greek Fire could end up spreading?
 
Naval battles would be pretty interesting. Would ramming or boarding still be the primary methods of disabling? Maybe Greek Fire could end up spreading?
Probably not ramming; it had already fallen out of fashion long before gunpowder, as heavier, sturdier hulls were less susceptible to ram-induced ruptures.
 
Yeah it's a fanciful take on some historical armor but from a hodgepodge of periods as you described. Just found it on Google.

Represention I guess of armor from a period where maybe gun powder never arises.

Well, these "inventive" guys who are doing these picture almost always tend to end with something less practical and more cumbersome than OTL. ;)
 
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