Probably been asked a billion times over, but what would be the effects on Europe if Genghis Khan never had existed?
Are there any TLs on this?
Danke.
Are there any TLs on this?
Danke.
WI: No Genghis Khan?
- Thread starter God-Eater of the Marshes
- Start date
I asked the same question about 5 months ago, and I will tell you what I've learned.
6 years ago, there was this summarizing (but not detailed at all) ATL just about there not being a Genghis Khan, finished long ago. When I asked about this, Baselius created A Khan in Constantinople, in which Temujin grows up in Greece. Alas, that seems dead right now. So basically we're in need of a new one with a strong, energetic writer at the helm!
6 years ago, there was this summarizing (but not detailed at all) ATL just about there not being a Genghis Khan, finished long ago. When I asked about this, Baselius created A Khan in Constantinople, in which Temujin grows up in Greece. Alas, that seems dead right now. So basically we're in need of a new one with a strong, energetic writer at the helm!
The Mongols are often credited for introducing western Europe to Asian ideas and products by inaugurating a free-trade zone extending across Eurasia. Transcontinental trade stimulated the European economy, greatly enriching the Italian city-states (Venice, Genoa, etc.) who became even more so than before the motors of the European economy.
When the Pax Mongolica disappeared, the demand for Asian goods it had created drove the establishment of maritime trade routes to Asia as countries further west looked for a way to circumvent Venetian monopolies - in a very indirect way the Mongols might have laid the foundation stone of future European global dominance.
So... without a Mongol Empire, Europe could find itself a lot further behind in terms of economic development, depending on what happens in Central Asia sans Mongols. If Europe stays fenced in by hostile Muslim empires restricting trade eastward, the European economy simply isn't going to see as much growth.
When the Pax Mongolica disappeared, the demand for Asian goods it had created drove the establishment of maritime trade routes to Asia as countries further west looked for a way to circumvent Venetian monopolies - in a very indirect way the Mongols might have laid the foundation stone of future European global dominance.
So... without a Mongol Empire, Europe could find itself a lot further behind in terms of economic development, depending on what happens in Central Asia sans Mongols. If Europe stays fenced in by hostile Muslim empires restricting trade eastward, the European economy simply isn't going to see as much growth.
These are the obvious consequences
1. Poland is united by the Silesian Piasts rather than the Kuyavian Piasts
2. Kievan Rus and Poland would have more friendly relations
3.HRE would expand less and lose more areas like Burgundy resulting HRE to retain areas similar to OTL Germany.
4. Less desire of Europeans for Eastern Riches.
1. Poland is united by the Silesian Piasts rather than the Kuyavian Piasts
2. Kievan Rus and Poland would have more friendly relations
3.HRE would expand less and lose more areas like Burgundy resulting HRE to retain areas similar to OTL Germany.
4. Less desire of Europeans for Eastern Riches.
And that's fine, IMHO. The immediate victims of the Mongols, like the Tanguts, Jurchens of Jin, Naimans, Kara Khitai, Uighurs, Kirghiz, Song China, the Cumans and Kipchaks, and the Khwarezmian Empire are going to survive. This way they'll live on as separate states and cultures, causing history to go into their favor. So if you're interested in what if *this country that was conquered by the mongols* survives, this is what happens next! I myself would like to see a lasting Jin or Tangut dynasty as well as Russia remaining free from a Tatar yoke. Make it happen people.
I'm not quite sure about these, but...
Certainly a whole lot would happen. There was a spread ideas West-East rather quickly rather than it had prior, and brought Europe into the Trade networks of the East (which had already been in place for centuries, just with less flowing to Europe. In fact, the Mongols made overland trading so cheap there was a decline in the Indian Ocean trade routes).
The Kievan Rus was destroyed by the Mongols, bringing about a population shift North, pushing the Russian peoples towards modern Moscow, allowing the appenage to grow a prosper later on. This Mongol presence and population shift forever meant what is now the Ukraine would be less powerful than the North of Russia. Poland and Lithuania benefited greatly from the Mongols sacking the crap out of Russia, expanding incredibly by the 15th century.
The Mongols also tore the Middle East to pieces, allowing the Malmukes in Egypt to thrive a little more than previously. The Sack of Baghdad also meant a lot of literary knowledge was lost from the Arab world.
The Crusader states had temporary relief from persistent attacks by Syria and Egypt when the Mongols came around, which means Without Genghis, the Crusader states may very well fall earlier than IOTL.
I could probably think of more things, but I'm tired. I hope what I have to offer helps.
Without Genghis Khan there is no Mongol Empire and no Mongol military machine.
There is no Mongol/Tatar invasion of eastern Europe.
Poland and Hungary are spared severe defeats and plundering.
The Kievan Rus is not destroyed. The Moscow region remains secondary in Russia.
Ukraine, Crimea, and the lower Volga are not occupied by powerful Mongol/Tatar states for the next several centuries.
There is no Tatar presence in eastern Europe. (As recently as the 1920s, Lithuanian Tatars (Moslems!) were a distinct ethnic group in Poland, and one of them rose to command the Polish Army.) For instance, no Tatarstan in NE Russia. (That is part of Europe.)
The Seljuk Turks don't get hosed by a Mongol invasion. This may lead to an earlier Turkish conquest of Byzantium, or just to, say, Turkish conquest of the Byzantine successor state in Nicaea, obviating the Greek restoration in the City.
Vladimir and all has been rising as Kiev declines, so the North may become primary anyway.
Yes, the balance of power in Rus' had been shifting north for a while (see Vladimir-Suzdal), due to the declining importance of the trade routes south into Constantinople. The north is going to assume a very important role in Russia, but not being utterly destroyed is definitely a bonus for Kiev and the south who could form a rival power bloc.
Sure. Although "utterly destroyed" hit both Kiev and Vladimir.
It would be interesting to see if not having to deal with the Mongols means Halych-Volynia can do well. It's in an awkward spot in some ways, but not hopeless.
Seeing that France had acquired parts of Provence after the Albigensian Crusade, they would continue to get more parts of Burgundy except those that are near Italy like Nice, Valais and Savoy but later on the HRE will lose those parts if Italy leaves the HRE leaving only German parts because the Alps will cause Germany and Italy to Split leaving behind Italy in the Empire perhaps a Germany with Lorraine and Northern Switzerland.
Culturally, it might be different but the borders are similar, it is also possible the HRE retains Holland, Lorraine and Hainaut.
Without the treat of Mongol (northern barbarian) invasion then the Chinese may not have abandoned their exploration - a Chinese Califoria?
Without the Mongol invasion then the Islamic world would have remained the scientific and arts center of the world for much longer - an Egyptian Isaac Newton?
Without the Mongol invasion then the Islamic world would have remained the scientific and arts center of the world for much longer - an Egyptian Isaac Newton?
Exclude the word probably, because it has...
Are there any TLs on this?
Danke.
Just one of the most famous and acclaimed AH.com TLs ever, courtesy of Max: http://wiki.alternatehistory.com/doku.php/timelines/chaos
He actually highlighted the massive changes in Russian and central European history very nicely. China's and central Asia's fates are also quite radically different. And the whole of Europe moves to a more pro-nominalist and pragmatic worldview than in OTL - but this does not necessarily bring only benefits, as Max was keen to highlight numerous times.
Max Sinister
Banned
Thank you very much for mentioning. Didn't want to self-promote too much. But yes, it's not the worst TL out there, and makes a nice long read.
Didn't want to self-promote too much. But yes, it's not the worst TL out there, and makes a nice long read.I asked the same question about 5 months ago, and I will tell you what I've learned.
6 years ago, there was this summarizing (but not detailed at all) ATL just about there not being a Genghis Khan, finished long ago. When I asked about this, Baselius created A Khan in Constantinople, in which Temujin grows up in Greece. Alas, that seems dead right now. So basically we're in need of a new one with a strong, energetic writer at the helm!
Are you sure it is dead? I think he posted an update,on the 6th of the 7th..
OK I agree it is not that frequent,but talk to him first,sent him a message,
see what he says;that scenario is too good to get wasted...anyway there was another TTL in Paradox Plaza "A Byzantine Khan" I think,very advanced,the writer must have been real master in creative dialogue writing and arrived until page 77...
Anyway Grouchio talk to Basileus see what he intends...